2012 Leinster Club Championships

[townman]

lusmagh hammered today, same old for offaly teams v kilkenny. we have forgotten how to beat them

so to has the rest of the country fifitrix

oulart bet them in senior club, clare bet them in u21, dubs bet them in minor, tipp bet them in intermediate, mount leinster rangers bet them in intermediate club, galway bet them in leinster final so the rest of the country hasnt done too badly against them

Coolderry beat Oulart, K/K beat mount leinster rangers, Galway won the round but lost the fight, kilkenny are going for 3 in a row in 2013
after been stopped for the 5 in a row in 2010, chances are Ballyhale could take leinster club this year and Thomastown will be there or there
abouts .

as for tipp intermediates they should have played instead of the senior side shambles in the semil-final this year they gave tipp a fair hammering
that day.

[fifitrixiebelle]

i must of got it wrong then. i thought oulart bet james stephens, Mt leinster rangers bet danesfort, clare & tipp & dubs bet them in various grades as did galway. leavin the latter out that still makes 5 different counties with victories over kk. the fact that for eg the dub minors were bet by tipp afterwards is irrelevant. looking at how coolderry folded later they wudnt have had a prayer if stephens got past oulart, theyd prob feel it was an honour to be on the same pitch & get a batin from them as offaly teams do.

fact is the rest of the country hasnt forgotten how to beat them. 5 of them (+ galway) remembered how to do it this year.

[llkj]

I wasn't at the game yesterday, so this is not a specific comment about the game. Beforehand, I was really hoping that Lusmagh would be able for the KK Junior champions. Obviously, for the fact that they are representing Offaly, but also to try to convince myself that our standards up to par with the standards of club hurling in the stronger counties. I think yesterday's result shows that such optimism is generally unfounded.

I would say that each year whatever clubs are going well (semi finalists) would probably be competitive in a Tipp/Galway/cork/KK senior championship. Our top team each year are always well able for the top team in any other county, with Coolderry, Tullamore, Birr, and hopefully Kilcormac/K all Leinster finalists at least in recent seasons. However, we do have lots of teams each year who would be middle of the road intermediate teams in other counties. These clubs are very competitive in Offaly senior ranks, as will be shown next year when Lusmagh are there or thereabouts with most senior teams in Offaly.

That our overall standard and depth is not as good, is not really a shock and I don't think too many here would argue that. (well I'm sure someone will come out with a: look at Coolderry last year, etc). the main question is what can we do about it.

In my opinion, quick fix solutions are not going to solve anything. the usual one that gets trotted out is that the senior championship needs fewer teams. To be honest, I dont really agree with that as a solution. In fact, I think that if some clubs dropped down to intermediate that it could actually do harm to them. This is particularly in the case of dual clubs where there is a pull on players for football and hurling.

Its not too radical here, but I feel that the only way forward is for each club to really take a look at what they are doing and make the necessary changes. however, I feel that the county board need to play a much more active role. If a club appoint an U 16 manager to a hurling team with little coaching experience or courses done, is there anything that the county board could do? I think we have all driven into a field during the summer to see an underage team doing a bit of backs and forwards, pucking the ball round, bit of a game and head home - I've been there myself for long enough and can say how frustrating it is. I know it is hard to get people to train teams, and most trainers are genuine, but just lack basic skills necessary.
I know it might sound a bit radical, but I really feel that the clubs should be held somewhat accountable to a higher power, other than just their own club board. It would be great if they had to meet minimum standards and present ongoing reports on how each team are doing to a body responsible for 'underage structures' in the county.
the purpose of this would not be to have a stick to beat clubs with, but to help them come out of the problems that they may be having. For example, there should be a standards charter that each club should know about and follow. EG: number of training sessions expected, number of games expected, level of coaches over each team (must at least have level X or be taking that course), county board coach has X session with each team per year, each team to have access to nutrition info at least 1 session per year, etc....
If clubs are struggling to meet the criteria set out, then there should be help available to reach that standard from the county board. For example, a monthly clinic for the coaches where they can get together and discuss problems. If a coach stands up in a room and says, "I'm having problems getting numbers in the field, etc.) he/she could discuss this issue and I bet there are 10 other coaches with a similar issues that would want to actively find solutions together.

While championships are good and it is no harm to see who is the best minor team in 2012, wouldn't it be good to have other criteria by which to judge each team. That way, we are working on our standards as a county and developing players/coaches and the games in this county for the future and not just competing against each other for the pride of the parish.

[Truth as i see it]

I wasn't at the game yesterday, so this is not a specific comment about the game. Beforehand, I was really hoping that Lusmagh would be able for the KK Junior champions. Obviously, for the fact that they are representing Offaly, but also to try to convince myself that our standards up to par with the standards of club hurling in the stronger counties. I think yesterday's result shows that such optimism is generally unfounded.

I would say that each year whatever clubs are going well (semi finalists) would probably be competitive in a Tipp/Galway/cork/KK senior championship. Our top team each year are always well able for the top team in any other county, with Coolderry, Tullamore, Birr, and hopefully Kilcormac/K all Leinster finalists at least in recent seasons. However, we do have lots of teams each year who would be middle of the road intermediate teams in other counties. These clubs are very competitive in Offaly senior ranks, as will be shown next year when Lusmagh are there or thereabouts with most senior teams in Offaly.

That our overall standard and depth is not as good, is not really a shock and I don't think too many here would argue that. (well I'm sure someone will come out with a: look at Coolderry last year, etc). the main question is what can we do about it.

In my opinion, quick fix solutions are not going to solve anything. the usual one that gets trotted out is that the senior championship needs fewer teams. To be honest, I dont really agree with that as a solution. In fact, I think that if some clubs dropped down to intermediate that it could actually do harm to them. This is particularly in the case of dual clubs where there is a pull on players for football and hurling.

Its not too radical here, but I feel that the only way forward is for each club to really take a look at what they are doing and make the necessary changes. however, I feel that the county board need to play a much more active role. If a club appoint an U 16 manager to a hurling team with little coaching experience or courses done, is there anything that the county board could do? I think we have all driven into a field during the summer to see an underage team doing a bit of backs and forwards, pucking the ball round, bit of a game and head home - I've been there myself for long enough and can say how frustrating it is. I know it is hard to get people to train teams, and most trainers are genuine, but just lack basic skills necessary.
I know it might sound a bit radical, but I really feel that the clubs should be held somewhat accountable to a higher power, other than just their own club board. It would be great if they had to meet minimum standards and present ongoing reports on how each team are doing to a body responsible for 'underage structures' in the county.
the purpose of this would not be to have a stick to beat clubs with, but to help them come out of the problems that they may be having. For example, there should be a standards charter that each club should know about and follow. EG: number of training sessions expected, number of games expected, level of coaches over each team (must at least have level X or be taking that course), county board coach has X session with each team per year, each team to have access to nutrition info at least 1 session per year, etc....
If clubs are struggling to meet the criteria set out, then there should be help available to reach that standard from the county board. For example, a monthly clinic for the coaches where they can get together and discuss problems. If a coach stands up in a room and says, "I'm having problems getting numbers in the field, etc.) he/she could discuss this issue and I bet there are 10 other coaches with a similar issues that would want to actively find solutions together.

While championships are good and it is no harm to see who is the best minor team in 2012, wouldn't it be good to have other criteria by which to judge each team. That way, we are working on our standards as a county and developing players/coaches and the games in this county for the future and not just competing against each other for the pride of the parish.

Honestly that's the most sensible idea i have ever seen on this forum, it cuts to the heart of the problem for me, standards or lack of them, for me though i would tweak it a little bit and give each club an incentive to want to get better, add a competitive edge to it in some way, but for the most part yeah excellent thinking, you should send it to the county board, see if they latch onto it

[kingscounty]

Didnt make it to the game , from reading the report on Lusmagh.com it looks like Thomastowns centre forward caused alot of damage scoring 9 points 4 or 5 off play. Also Lusmagh only scored one point from play and just one point in the second half so they were always going to find it hard. Lusmagh did well to get back to senior in their first year in intermedate , the challenge now is for them to compete and survive at senior.

[townman]

i must of got it wrong then. i thought oulart bet james stephens, Mt leinster rangers bet danesfort, clare & tipp & dubs bet them in various grades as did galway. leavin the latter out that still makes 5 different counties with victories over kk. the fact that for eg the dub minors were bet by tipp afterwards is irrelevant. looking at how coolderry folded later they wudnt have had a prayer if stephens got past oulart, theyd prob feel it was an honour to be on the same pitch & get a batin from them as offaly teams do.

fact is the rest of the country hasnt forgotten how to beat them. 5 of them (+ galway) remembered how to do it this year.

your own tipp were the worst again them this year

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

llkj, I have been harping on about this for ages now on this forum. But its all too easy to say things like that. The assumption is that there are a wealth of talented coaches out there, who just need to do the coaching courses. Lads are plugging gaps out there, the guys you want to get involved, cant or wont commit. And the majority of guys will not give up the time necessary to improve their coaching skills and this is a real problem out there now

[llkj]

I agree with you Ahlethimoutwithit (was trying to think of some shortened version of your name or abbreviation, but nothing really works) the problems in Offaly are not going to be solved with quick fixes as they are too deep rooted. So, giving some guy a coaching foundation level cert isn't going to solve things either. The main point that I was making is that for too long clubs are operating in their own vacuum and generally very little sharing of knowledge and resources takes place within the county. Having some centralised system whereby each club needs to meet certain standards in their club could only benefit the county as a whole.

I agree with the point made above that a reward system would be far more beneficial than a punishment system.

Also, regarding the coaching aspect of things - that is a matter of changing the culture that exists within the county and within each club. Not an easy thing to do... but then again, competing with the top teams on the playing field isn't easy either. If you aren't competing with them in the structures, the strategies, the implementation and the measurement... then you have no way of competing on the field!

[townman]

lads would alot of the problem be we don't have the talent in the county i watched the minors again Meath this year
and they were more skillful and better strikers of the ball than offaly.

i see it in my own club the young lads give it 100 per cent but they don't seem to have the skill and cut of the lads that went
before them, we might just have to wait till they come around again, but sure we only won our first leinster in 1980.

its not just about doing the coaching that other top counties are doing most counties do it. its just seems the right players are not coming
throught in offaly at the moment.

i think we have to get it right at school levels first when was the last time we had a good St.Brendans or Bangher colleage winning side
thats where the stars of tommorrow will come from. you can't train lads the bread and butter of the game at 18 or 21 what seems to be going on
in offaly over the last few years.

[llkj]

lads would alot of the problem be we don't have the talent in the county

Not having 'talented' players on the field is not the problem. Lack of 'talent' on the field is the result of the other problems. If we do everything else correctly and we still don't have the 'talent' on the field, then it's time to try a different game. But to give up and

we might just have to wait till they come around again

would be criminal... I have a feeling you'll be waiting a long time. Personally, I'd like to try something different than lament the past.

I do agree that schools are another vital cog in the machine. Again, I think the county board should have a much more active presence in the affairs of the school team. Don't just leave it to a few teachers to try to keep the games going, which can be really hit or miss, depending on the school and the individuals involved.

[substandard]

There is a growing problem with schools now because of the supervision and substitution issue. School management are under pressure to reduce costs, and therefore are reluctant to sanction games. The windows for when schools can play are becoming more and more limited, and they have to correspond in order for a game to go ahead. Players are aware of this friction, and, unless a school team is going especially well, very little recognition is given. As a result, many players just aren't pushed about playing for their schools. A few years ago, there was far more local media coverage of school games; economically the papers can't provide the same coverage, and that's another small, but telling factor. Although things vary from school to school, and both Gallen and St Mary's have achieved brilliantly the past few years, maintaining this, and getting other schools to improve, in hurling and football, will be no easy task.

[Plain of the Herbs]

My eyesight is failing, but that looks fierce like a 'parish pump' on Rathdowney-Errill's crest.

Which is cooool !

[KillougheyGoBragh]

Yes, definitely, a 'Parish pump'.
Should be a great day in OCP and a fantastic day for hurling fans from both clubs and counties alike.
I would love to be able to attend but sadly due to other commitments and Christmas coming will have to make do with listening to Midlands Radio 3 online for commentary here in the UK.
Hope K-K maintain the great spirit that has seen them achieve so much this year and that spirit has been emulated at all levels within the club and as everything from here on is a bonus for us supporters we can only be very, very proud of them.

[Truth as i see it]

lads would alot of the problem be we don't have the talent in the county i watched the minors again Meath this year
and they were more skillful and better strikers of the ball than offaly.

i see it in my own club the young lads give it 100 per cent but they don't seem to have the skill and cut of the lads that went
before them, we might just have to wait till they come around again, but sure we only won our first leinster in 1980.

its not just about doing the coaching that other top counties are doing most counties do it. its just seems the right players are not coming
throught in offaly at the moment.

i think we have to get it right at school levels first when was the last time we had a good St.Brendans or Bangher colleage winning side
thats where the stars of tommorrow will come from. you can't train lads the bread and butter of the game at 18 or 21 what seems to be going on
in offaly over the last few years.

Excuses! Excuses! Excuses!

Ya know its funny but a lot of like minded people like you are on the county board at the moment, just waiting for some fairy pixie to come out of nowhere and fix all our problems with a magic wand

Ah sure its all right lads if we just sit on our hands for another 10 years it will sort itself out

Keep dreaming pal

What you don't get (and probably never will) is that talent alone will never be good enough

You have to have the motivation and mindset to win as well

And that has to start at the grass roots level of a club

That means having committed coaches starting at u-6s and u-8s all of the way up

I have no doubt that your lads are committed but i doubt their coaches are

I guarantee you three years ago you would have said Donegal has no talent and had no chance of winning sam

Jim McGuinness comes along, Puts in a more professional approach to their game, demands higher commitment from the players and worked from an U-21 side who hadn't won an u-21 ulster title since 1995

Do they still not have any talent?

By Your logic they shouldn't have been able to win sam

This kind of cave man mentality is the reason why we are so low at the moment

There is a lazy lazy mentality when it comes to fixing the counties problems

everyone knows how to fix it just as long as someone else will do it

[fifitrixiebelle]

i must of got it wrong then. i thought oulart bet james stephens, Mt leinster rangers bet danesfort, clare & tipp & dubs bet them in various grades as did galway. leavin the latter out that still makes 5 different counties with victories over kk. the fact that for eg the dub minors were bet by tipp afterwards is irrelevant. looking at how coolderry folded later they wudnt have had a prayer if stephens got past oulart, theyd prob feel it was an honour to be on the same pitch & get a batin from them as offaly teams do.

fact is the rest of the country hasnt forgotten how to beat them. 5 of them (+ galway) remembered how to do it this year.

your own tipp were the worst again them this year

your obsession with tipp gets worse, ya even referred to it in yer first reply. dont know what it has to do with our disasterous record. dey did win 2 ais this year (one against your wannabe buddies kk),lost an ai q-final also, knocked us out of the championship, won 4 provincials (I think)...

& what did we win exactly??????