Poll: Who Shares The Majority of the Blame

[TheManFromFerbane]

Simple one here, and I've left out the obvious, "They all do" because I think everyone would agree that things could be changed on all sides.

People might think it's funny that I've mentioned specific managers or even the previous collection of players, this isn't meant as a dig to them, but you rarely find yourself in as bad a situation as we are in now, without it starting off with something innocuous before hand so I wanted to leave it as a choice.

I also decided to break down the County Board's responsibilities as if you do feel it was them to blame, then their role is too wide to just say "The County Board" full stop.

However, I've left it so you can still select up to three options, so if you believe two aspects contribute the majority of the problems, then feel free.

[Lone Shark]

Excellent poll - a good way of framing the situation. Personally, I went with:

(1) The county board's handling of managers in terms of appointment and working with them, though here I would largely focus on appointment. It seems to be too lengthy and cumbersome a process, with too much interference from vested interests. Far too often we've had people on selection committees and we all know before the process starts whose side they are on - when they should be going into an interview process with an open mind. If a certain candidate is the best option because of what he's done, then he should be able to communicate that to an interview panel - because after all, if he can't communicate with them, what chance has he of communicating with players?

(2) Players from 2007 to 2011 - these guys all know players playing with other counties, they know what the standard is, and in too many cases, they aren't interested in living up to it. Okay, certain management teams weren't ideal - but there's probably only a handful of those all across Ireland who are. Yet those who are truly driven make the best of it, and in Offaly's case, there are too many not interested in doing that.

(3) Clubs' involvement in county affairs - I've been at some county board meetings and I've seen enough to know that a lot of the people there just want to get it out of the way. It's an unfortunate truth at every level - club committees and county boards are populated by reluctant volunteers, those who do what they have to but ultimately have neither the time nor the drive to do the job right - but at club level, they're often the best options that are on offer. For everyone, survival seems to be the name off the game. Nobody wants to hear of big projects because they'll have to be paid for, everybody wants to cut corners, and things like rules and internal development are only a concern when it affects themselves. Motions at the end of the year are hugely predictable - the club that has no county players will look for more strict adherence to the master fixture list, the club with loads of dual/county players will look for more flexibility, and such like things. We're all in this together and until the drive for change starts being reflected through the clubs, we've no hope.

[Truth as i see it]

Excellent poll - a good way of framing the situation. Personally, I went with:

(1) The county board's handling of managers in terms of appointment and working with them, though here I would largely focus on appointment. It seems to be too lengthy and cumbersome a process, with too much interference from vested interests. Far too often we've had people on selection committees and we all know before the process starts whose side they are on - when they should be going into an interview process with an open mind. If a certain candidate is the best option because of what he's done, then he should be able to communicate that to an interview panel - because after all, if he can't communicate with them, what chance has he of communicating with players?

(2) Players from 2007 to 2011 - these guys all know players playing with other counties, they know what the standard is, and in too many cases, they aren't interested in living up to it. Okay, certain management teams weren't ideal - but there's probably only a handful of those all across Ireland who are. Yet those who are truly driven make the best of it, and in Offaly's case, there are too many not interested in doing that.

(3) Clubs' involvement in county affairs - I've been at some county board meetings and I've seen enough to know that a lot of the people there just want to get it out of the way. It's an unfortunate truth at every level - club committees and county boards are populated by reluctant volunteers, those who do what they have to but ultimately have neither the time nor the drive to do the job right - but at club level, they're often the best options that are on offer. For everyone, survival seems to be the name off the game. Nobody wants to hear of big projects because they'll have to be paid for, everybody wants to cut corners, and things like rules and internal development are only a concern when it affects themselves. Motions at the end of the year are hugely predictable - the club that has no county players will look for more strict adherence to the master fixture list, the club with loads of dual/county players will look for more flexibility, and such like things. We're all in this together and until the drive for change starts being reflected through the clubs, we've no hope.

I agree with your third point, the only thing that will change the apathy within the county board is a bit of success, if and when we get it everyone will want a piece of the success, the key will be if the board are smart enough to capitalize on it and push the county forward with the money that that potential success can bring.

For example can anyone tell me what was done to seize on the success of the Leinster success of 97, was there more attention payed to the schools? were the players asked to take a more active roll with their clubs from a coaching capacity? did the county board make an effort to look at what other county sides were doing and try to learn from them? i honestly don't know but i will refer you to a comment made from some of the so called wise men of Offaly GAA when the proposal was put to the floor about the go games blitz.

"What does Croke Park know about Offaly Football and Hurling"

Says it all for me really.

[manfromdelmonte]

I'm going to say all we have to do is look at our far less illustrious neighbours across the Shannon who have shown the way forward in terms of developing underage talent and having a steady ship at senior level

now Roscommon may not be a dual county, but as a county racked by emigration and with a small population base and small number of clubs they really are punching above their weight the last 4/5 years from under 16 up to under 21. people here might say Offaly are in Leinster, but outside of Dublin who have been a dominant force at underage? none. Roscommon are consistantly beating galway and mayo and underage - two of the perceived strongest underage football counties in the country. How???

what lessons can Offaly learn from the Rossies?
well first is to ensure there is good coaching going on in clubs and schools.
get highly qualified and motivated coaches to work with county teams and panels (and to look after these people well)
make sure the best young players from every club (no matter how small or big) are brought into development panels. it will benefit the smaller clubs hugely to have a few kids getting better coaching
to have a back up development panel at 16/17 to get the fellas not good enough/old enough for minor but to bring them through the following year.
schools, schools, schools. primary schools are the way to get lots of kids out to underage clubs.
and secondary schools are a good way to build up your county under 16 and minor panels. the work put into schools shows itself very quickly at minor and under 16.
continuity. the same management follows the players up to minor if possible.

so mainly, it is the county board who are responsible.

[livegaaresults]

what does "The Player from the 2007-2011" mean? a single player? or should that be players? either way i'm not going for that option, I'd just like to know. Thanks

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

Personally, I put it at the hands of the county board appointment and treatment of managers, but I think that the clubs have a lot to answer for in terms how they have prepared players, money wasted on sub standard coaches, players have a reponsibility as they often demand these so called "big names" that are on the club merrigoround.
I would also question the quality of the debate that goes on at county board level, and in fairness there is not a huge demand for these jobs.

So my 3 were CB appointment and treatment of managers, clubs preparation of adult teams, and clubs involvement in county board matters.

I think there should be a full review/plan put in place as to how Offaly football can get back on track and responsibilities and roles. Who is coaching club teams adult & underage, are they qualified, what coaching are they doing, are they applying best practice.
How we finance football in the county, how do we look after our elite players to bring them through and give them the opportunity to be the best they can.
We have a huge job to compete with rugby and soccer at underage, and as many coaches are parents they are overdoing the facilitation of these sports so their kids can participate in all 3. (Which I am not against per say, but why not continue coahing over the winter for the kids who dont play rugby or soccer?)
What are GAA players in Offaly doing to keep in shape, build up strength and core over the winter. There should be programmes assigned with clubs working together to offer players the opportunity to train in groups to cut down costs over the winter.
Clubs should be encouraged to appoint guys to focus on coaching the specifics of forward play and the nuts and bolts of good defensive play, plus goalkeeping coaching.

There are so many areas to fix and there is so much that can easily be done in order to get the ball rolling and I see so much wrong in our club that is obvious to anyone who cares, but there is a large degree of apathy. And a lot of people involved who feel they are doing the club a favour, as opposed to doing it with a sense of the responsibilty they have to teaching kids to be the best they can be at a specific sport, and bringing through as many kids as possible playing the game at a good level.
A fella made a good point to me the other day, a guy who is no 30 on a club panel of u14s is as important as the best player as he could be the chairman or secretary in the future who has positive memories of playing as he was made to feel as important and a part of the group.

And also in these days where kids are under such pressure in school, college and afterwards on adult teams through trying to hold down jobs and conform to modern society, it is vital that playing and training for Gaelic football becomes something which raises the spirit and is enjoyable. Not always an easy thing to do, but it must return to being a top priority for all involved in coaching and development!!

[jimbob17]

Good topic, and allows one to point the finger specifically at certain issues, not just a general co board are to blame without saying what exactly they are not doing.

To my knowledge there is talent there with decent work being done at schools and underage level. The minors have got to a good few leinster finals in the 7 years while plenty of schools have won Leinsters in the last few years and some All Irelands, ie St Marys Edenderry, Gallen Ferbane, Tullamore College and Tullamore CBS while Killina are always there or thereabouts too. Additionally, Moate, Col Iosagain and Rochfortbridge have lots of offaly players too and do lots of good work at schools level and are always there competing for honours. This has contributed to the success of the minors.

The problem to me is when they leave school and leave the minor grades. The good ones tend to get pushed straight into a co senior set up while the ok ones are left to wallow in no mans land. There appears to be no structure to bring them through. Obviously there is U21 but this year aside, the 21 has been mismanaged with a lot of players falling thro the cracks. In fact most 19 year olds are way too young to make a county 21 team. There is little or no support from a sport science perspective in comparison with other counties. Nobody is given the role of providing these young lads with norms and fitness (strength) programmes to help them make the leap to the next level. So they either get left aside and go backwards or they get called in to senior and thrown in at the deep end too early and get exposed for not having the required amount of work done; ie Graham Guilfoyle, Bernard Allen, Sean Pender, young Brady, Richie Dalton to name a few. By the time they reach 22 or 23 they have 4 years experience of not being ready, think they are something they are not and get frustrated with losing as has happened. They should only be introduced to senior at 21 or 22 unless they are absolutely exceptional, ie Niall McNamee's ilk. These are guys who could be stars if introduced at the right time. However when they get the wake up call of senior before they are ready, their confidence can be shattered and they develop a negative outlook on senior county football. I think this has happened with a lot of these lads.

Those who go to college often dont make teams as they dont have the work done at the basic level either in comparison to other county panelists from other counties (There is an obvious lack of physical conditoning done at minor level too), but we tend to get through games based on being talented footballers. Then the social life kicks in and it all goes pear shaped with good players going backwards. Those who dont go to college tend to go back playing a slower speed of football with their clubs and go backwards too.

It doesnt help that the senior team does not look the most appealing at the moment either and fellas no longer aspire to play senior for Offaly given recent years performances. Young players dont look up to it and say, i want to be one of them and do the required work to get there.

Senior football is for men, not young boys!! Kildare and dublin have recognised this. They have serious programmes in place for fellas to develop with regard to physical conditioning. Kildare put massive weight and investment into their intermediate team and this is used largely as a launching pad run in conjunction with minor and 21 to get them to senior level. In fact Kildares second team are so well organised they would most likely beat Offalys first team at the moment. Mikey Conway was playing with them last year as he recovered from his injury. A lot of the others have come through this set up also.

Another important issue is who the county board bring in to train the teams. They have got journeymen managers in recent times and with these journeymen managers, often came journeymen trainers and fellas chancing their arm. All you have to do is look at what longford are doing for the last few years and see their progress. They have brought in professional backroom people who know what is required and get it done. This is not for the sake of a few quid as the journeyman often gets the same as the professional, it is generally a standard rate...Offaly need to identify this as a key issue and look at bringing a more professional approach to their set ups. Thus, the team will believe in what they are doing because they will start to see results, hence more buy in on their part!!

Unfortunately it is a conglomerate of a whole host of issues, but ultimately, the county board do not know what is required with regard to personnel and financial investment to be at the top level and this is why our fortunes have gone drastically down hill in the last few years. As other counties move on and annually change to more professional ways, Offaly stays stuck in the bog, with the hierarchy of the county board thinking ah sure we'll be grand!!! I am afraid not!!!

[TheManFromFerbane]

what does "The Player from the 2007-2011" mean? a single player? or should that be players? either way i'm not going for that option, I'd just like to know. Thanks

Sorry corrected that, my natural Ferbanian abhorrence of plurals got in the way there

[Bord na Mona man]

Another intangle factor, but one worth mentioning is "we the public".
We can't talk about the County Board or the Clubs in complete isolation as these are bodies that are representative bodies of ourselves.

Is the GAA public and the GAA culture in the Offaly highly demanding of success and highly demanding of high standards?
Think of what might makes Kilkenny a successful hurling county continuously, or Kerry in football.
At our best, Offaly have bettered them at the highest level, but they keep coming back relentlessly while we don't.

There is a continual drive and a expectation of success in certain counties that isn't quite there in Offaly. An All Ireland in Offaly will sate the hunger of the county for a generation. We're still celebrating jubilees of victories from decade's past.

The hunger and drive doesn't come from motions passed at AGMs or who gets appointed to what post in the County Board. It comes from the very grassroots and from the DNA of those of us who take an interest in Offaly GAA.

Whenever standards slip another notch in the county, or another low water mark is hit in terms of how lowly we've fallen, or what lowly opposition has beaten us, I've often being disappointed at how much apathy and how little backlash there has been to it.

It's a bit like people feel that we've scaled great heights in the past, we're unlikely to do it again without severe hard work. If the mountain were to somehow lower itself in height, we might look at trying to scale it again.

[substandard]

Something I've often thought about so I'll throw it out here and see what would people think. From underage coaching, I would not be entirely comfortable woking on fitness programs for teams, in that I wouldn't be anywhere near being an expert or qualified to judge, and instead would be depending on chasing others for advice or reading up on techniques or required levels, but my problem would be that it would be very unscientific and basically a haphazard judging-by-eye how collective training would be going. I often wondered might it work if 2 or 3 (or possibly more in smaller clubs with smaller numbers) neighbouring clubs were to pool together (the ideal scenario would be to do it through the schools) in the off season and collectively train u14s, u16s and minors at their own age group, say once or twice a week over a 6 or 7 week period doing physical strength/ conditioning work with a view to establishing a program which the individuals could follow themselves. If I have already succeeded in making people scratch their heads and think what is he on about, let me try and explain.
* A qualified fitness instructor/ P.E. teacher give the course, so they could explain the rationale behind each exercise and how the participant could benefit
*The cost could be shared between clubs, and facilities could likewise be shared. The young lads would be competitive not only amongst their own peers but also against other clubs, but I also think it could develop good friendships and friendly rivalry.
*There is probably a tendency to do this kind of training at elite or development squad level only, it would vastly widen the net and improve the overall fitness base not only of the top players in each club, but right through.
*Because of the nature of the training, which wouldn't involve ballwork, the young lad who might not be any good as a player and might only get brought on for 5 minutes at the end of matches where his team is either hockeying/ being hockeyed is literally on a level playing field and might actually excel, thereby gaining both strength and confidence.
I've always thought that you should coach from the bottom up rather than the top down (my own playing days were spent being harangued for not being able to do drills or play as good as our county representative!!), so I think that doing something like this might keep players involved for longer and leave them less likely to drop out.
A lot of this comes back to the coaching forum I attended in the Court hotel a few years back, where Colm O Rourke, amongst others, spoke about the lifestyle of youngsters, and how they are so much more unlikely to engage in physical labour or even cycling from A to B than a generation ago. I think that this could form positive attitudes in players towards training and gym work and hopefully facilitate them in adopting a disciplined approach to maintaining a fit and healthy lifestyle, which naturally would benefit their club and hopefully county teams in the future.
There are probably holes a mile wide in this that I haven't addressed, but I do think that it could be implemented with a bit of cooperation and maybe lateral thinking, and then when training would start the emphasis could be put on ball skills and game play as opposed to ad hoc fitness training. Any thoughts?

[manfromdelmonte]

a simple solution to the Strength and Conditioning problem...

Make sure the next full time coach hired in the county has a background or a qualification in that.
then that person can be used by the county squads, development squads, schools and clubs for information that will improve their focus on this area.
it could be as simple as what exercises to do on the field to improve strength, gym programmes for players, advice for clubs on kitting out a gym or nutrition advice for youngsters on a development panel.

if you think that the likes of rugby or soccer teams have these sort of coaches, why shouldn't the GAA be looking to improve the standards in this area across the whole county.
other counties are spending a money in these areas, and it is paying off - Longford are a good example at senior level. Cavan at underage level.

[Truth as i see it]

Another intangle factor, but one worth mentioning is "we the public".
We can't talk about the County Board or the Clubs in complete isolation as these are bodies that are representative bodies of ourselves.

Is the GAA public and the GAA culture in the Offaly highly demanding of success and highly demanding of high standards?
Think of what might makes Kilkenny a successful hurling county continuously, or Kerry in football.
At our best, Offaly have bettered them at the highest level, but they keep coming back relentlessly while we don't.

There is a continual drive and a expectation of success in certain counties that isn't quite there in Offaly. An All Ireland in Offaly will sate the hunger of the county for a generation. We're still celebrating jubilees of victories from decade's past.

The hunger and drive doesn't come from motions passed at AGMs or who gets appointed to what post in the County Board. It comes from the very grassroots and from the DNA of those of us who take an interest in Offaly GAA.

Whenever standards slip another notch in the county, or another low water mark is hit in terms of how lowly we've fallen, or what lowly opposition has beaten us, I've often being disappointed at how much apathy and how little backlash there has been to it.

It's a bit like people feel that we've scaled great heights in the past, we're unlikely to do it again without severe hard work. If the mountain were to somehow lower itself in height, we might look at trying to scale it again.

Have to agree with this completely, the mindset starts from the bottom up and personally i'm pissed off that we as fans are so excepting of the same old excuses such as:

1. we're a small county: yes but so is Killkenny, yes they neglect football to a criminal degree but they are continuously trying to better themselves and their development structure to give themselves an edge over all other hurling counties like for example when they lost their drive for five in 2010 they sent their coaches over to study the Arsenal youth development system to see if they could pick up any ideas on how to improve, after we get league hammerings and first round championship knockouts what do the county board do?? Nothing.

2. we don't have the talent: i have heard this excuse for so long from old lads, especially in my days working as a storeman in my younger days out by condrons that i used to be stewing in the canteen as i heard everyone wallow in self pity for the county set up, the reason i was stewing if anyone is interested to know is because no one could answer my question to a satisfactory degree, that question being why do we not have any talent. they thought it was as simple as not having 15 Matt Connors on the field, they never had the comprehension to ask what way they are being developed and why is the coaching so poor.

I agree with the posters who say that the responsibility lies at club level, instead of coming onto this site and complaining about what should be done and what is not being done anyone involved with their local club on this site should take responsibility and affect change within their club, i've heard people say that there are not enough players taking responsibility on the field, if no one does it at their local club off the field how are they suppose to do it on the field.
I'm reminded of a line from Eminems movie 8 mile

Jimmy Smith Jr: Man that's all we ever do is talk
[imitating Sol]
Jimmy Smith Jr: "We need to get fat rides",
[imitating DJ]
Jimmy Smith Jr: "No, what weed to do is put our money in savings bonds",
[imitating future]
Jimmy Smith Jr: No, what we need to do is put our songs on JLB." Man shut up. All of us never do anything about nuttin

I cant stand the helpless attitude surrounding the county, we make excuses not to try and improve, if your with a club get on to the guys who feel like they're doing their club a favor and tell them to do the job right or get off the county board