Hurling to return to St Brendan's Park

[Plain of the Herbs]

A prize to that poster for
1 - the best debut post on this site, and
2 - the nearest and most concise summary of Offaly's hurling problems.

A classic case of Nero fiddles while Rome burns. There are 101 things wrong with Offaly hurling but where they play their games isn't one of them. Those things are lack of youth structures, outdated coaching methods, not competing/winning at underage level, lack of continuity through development squads, poor criteria for selecting managers, long delays in putting u21 management structure in place. The list goes on.

The thinking that playing in Birr will wash away all those problems is backward, wistful and regressive. The discussion is only serving to further alienate areas of the county where hurling is beginning to grow. If ye truly wanted hurling to flourish ye would be encouraging hurling in all areas of the small county you have to pick from.

While this is the central argument in Offaly hurling, it will continue to fall to depths it hasn't seen for a long time.

[Sharp Eye]

St Brendans Park Birr should get 2 SH Quarter-Finals, 2 SH Semi-Finals, all Walsh Cup home games, Leinster Minor & U-21 Hurling Championship home games. O Connor Park is not suitable for games in which the attendance is less than 5,000. A Home-Venue should be worth a few points to the "home-team". O Connor Park with a small crowd has minimal benefit as a "home-pitch".

[Truth as i see it]

A prize to that poster for
1 - the best debut post on this site, and
2 - the nearest and most concise summary of Offaly's hurling problems.

A classic case of Nero fiddles while Rome burns. There are 101 things wrong with Offaly hurling but where they play their games isn't one of them. Those things are lack of youth structures, outdated coaching methods, not competing/winning at underage level, lack of continuity through development squads, poor criteria for selecting managers, long delays in putting u21 management structure in place. The list goes on.

The thinking that playing in Birr will wash away all those problems is backward, wistful and regressive. The discussion is only serving to further alienate areas of the county where hurling is beginning to grow. If ye truly wanted hurling to flourish ye would be encouraging hurling in all areas of the small county you have to pick from.

While this is the central argument in Offaly hurling, it will continue to fall to depths it hasn't seen for a long time.

Yep totally agree, you hit the nail square on the head, coaching and games for hurling within the county is done by people with an outdated view on hurling, (well meaning people and people we should thank for putting their time aside to coach for the county but with an outdated coaching philosophy none the less)

I'm not trying to turn this into a football vs Hurling discussion but if you look at the work that has been done at Underage for football over the past few years while the seniors have struggled there is progress with the minors andd u21s and this is because of (A) the work that Alan Mulhall as games promotion officer has done and (B) the people that he has brought into the development squads

He's attends national coaching workshops on a regular basis and is well versed in modern coaching methods and he has passed on this knowledge to his coaching teams which has filtered down to the youngest development age groups as well as football clubs across the county while the hurling board is made up primarily made up of county hurlers from the early 80s to the mid 90s who cling onto the Offaly way of playing which rightly or wrongly is out of date

That's just my view but back to the point at hand, Totally agree with Keshawantstimber, moving hurling back to Birr will not wash away the problems with Offaly hurling, they need to stop clinging to old excuses, roll their sleeves up and get on with the job of updating coaching for hurling within the county

[Bord na Mona man]

Can we read much into younger coaches getting the better outcomes in underage football compared to the older brigade in charge of hurling?
Hurling has changed a lot in the last few years without many people actually acknowledging it.
In football, any tactical variation causes ructions. In contrast, look at how hurling has evolved into a crash and possession game without much acknowledgement from within the hurling fraternity.

[Bord na Mona man]

A prize to that poster for
1 - the best debut post on this site, and
2 - the nearest and most concise summary of Offaly's hurling problems.

A classic case of Nero fiddles while Rome burns. There are 101 things wrong with Offaly hurling but where they play their games isn't one of them. Those things are lack of youth structures, outdated coaching methods, not competing/winning at underage level, lack of continuity through development squads, poor criteria for selecting managers, long delays in putting u21 management structure in place. The list goes on.

The thinking that playing in Birr will wash away all those problems is backward, wistful and regressive. The discussion is only serving to further alienate areas of the county where hurling is beginning to grow. If ye truly wanted hurling to flourish ye would be encouraging hurling in all areas of the small county you have to pick from.

While this is the central argument in Offaly hurling, it will continue to fall to depths it hasn't seen for a long time.

Tony McTague's first ever post here was good as well.

[KeshaWantsTimber]

Can we read much into younger coaches getting the better outcomes in underage football compared to the older brigade in charge of hurling?

Yes, I think we can read quite a bit into it. The explosion of sports science in Ireland in the last 5-10 years has had a huge effect on how hurling and football are played. The graduates from UL such as Clare coach Paul Kinnerk are coaching in new, exciting ways and the younger, skillful and quick players are buying into it. Everyone can see the results. Clare have 30 athletic, powerful, quick and skillful hurlers. That is a result of talent coming at the right time but also the structures they put in place and stuck with for the past 10-15 years.

In ways they are similar to Offaly. Their hurling heartland is in smaller towns and villages of East Clare but they play their games in Ennis which is a football and hurling town. Their last senior football championship being in 2006 and hurling in 1990. Not unlike Tullamore. Clare haven't got hung up on trying to bring all the hurling matches back to Sixmilebridge or Scariff though. They have concerned themselves with the important things. Getting all the talented hurlers interested and motivated, giving them good underage and senior structures and allowing them to express themselves.

Perhaps the greatest legacy the Clare team of 1995 and 1997 left behind was their appetite for hardwork, their willingness to train and their attitude towards to game. Attitude. A number of them have continued on to become progressive and successful managers. Unfortunately the same cant be said for the Offaly teams of 1994 and 1998. The game has changed but Offaly have been left behind hoping that the wheel will turn back to traditional values. It wont. Offaly certainly could knit their old style with the new but vision, drive, belief and hard work are needed. All seem to be lacking at the moment.

[jimbob17]

Can we read much into younger coaches getting the better outcomes in underage football compared to the older brigade in charge of hurling?

Yes, I think we can read quite a bit into it. The explosion of sports science in Ireland in the last 5-10 years has had a huge effect on how hurling and football are played. The graduates from UL such as Clare coach Paul Kinnerk are coaching in new, exciting ways and the younger, skillful and quick players are buying into it. Everyone can see the results. Clare have 30 athletic, powerful, quick and skillful hurlers. That is a result of talent coming at the right time but also the structures they put in place and stuck with for the past 10-15 years.

In ways they are similar to Offaly. Their hurling heartland is in smaller towns and villages of East Clare but they play their games in Ennis which is a football and hurling town. Their last senior football championship being in 2006 and hurling in 1990. Not unlike Tullamore. Clare haven't got hung up on trying to bring all the hurling matches back to Sixmilebridge or Scariff though. They have concerned themselves with the important things. Getting all the talented hurlers interested and motivated, giving them good underage and senior structures and allowing them to express themselves.

Perhaps the greatest legacy the Clare team of 1995 and 1997 left behind was their appetite for hardwork, their willingness to train and their attitude towards to game. Attitude. A number of them have continued on to become progressive and successful managers. Unfortunately the same cant be said for the Offaly teams of 1994 and 1998. The game has changed but Offaly have been left behind hoping that the wheel will turn back to traditional values. It wont. Offaly certainly could knit their old style with the new but vision, drive, belief and hard work are needed. All seem to be lacking at the moment.

Agree with all of the above. We are not like a Cork Kilkenny and Tipp in that we dont have a huge pool of natural talent. However, we dont harness or maximise what we have as we tend to disenfranchise players with local politics through the underage squads by virtue of who is involved over the team. This is all we are looking for. To do what the likes of Clare have done and what Carlow are trying to do......Besides this, many coaches involved in dev squads to my knowledge in years gone by didnt have the necessary expertise for the modern game but they are still always there over the teams, This is the problem.

Yes there were good coaches brought into the football squads but id argue that there are a few good young hurling coaches there aswell that arent being utilised as they dont necessarily have the "pull" or "profile" to meet the organisers brief which is in many respects outdated! The level of organisation that has been going on in SOME of the underage development squads has been absolutely disgraceful. Ive heard stories of coaches being sent with squads that never met lads till the day of the game, of phone calls being made to lads not involved to help pick teams, of phone calls being made to lads to make up a team of 15 en route to a match!!! all made by so called "Legends" of the game in our great county....

So who are the good young hurling coaches that are in the county that are not involved with development squads at present? Thoughts?

[Buck Face]

In relation to Brian Gavin (and apologies for not getting back sooner but at least it helped reignite the discussion a bit), he simply and unexpectedly spoke very well in favour of returning hurling to Birr at a County Board meeting last week.

It stirred debate on the floor which resulted in the County Board agreeing that at least one National Hurling League game will be played in Birr next year on the condition that Birr GAA get clearance from Croke Park in relation to safety concerns.

I don’t think that this is enough to 'resolve the issue' but it is at least a first move by the County Board in, what I consider to be, the right direction.

LS – Without being emotive or thinking with anything other than a clear head, the home of Offaly hurling, both club and intercounty, is undeniably St Brendan’s Park, Birr.

In relation to your potential list of fixtures, it is fair to say that playing two league games in SBP will not resolve the issue but as an advocate yourself for playing one football league game a year in Birr to help develop football in the County then I think you can only agree that every little helps.

Kesha - Do you really know of anyone that believes that returning hurling to SBP alone will ‘wash away all’ our problems? I would hope not. However, I think putting it out there that a number of people think like that is a ‘red herring’.

[Lone Shark]

LS – Without being emotive or thinking with anything other than a clear head, the home of Offaly hurling, both club and intercounty, is undeniably St Brendan’s Park, Birr.

How is that not emotive when Offaly hurling is not a corporeal thing? No other county goes on like this and I remain of the belief that this notion of Offaly hurling being spiritually "stronger" in one club ground is utterly detrimental to the greater good. Offaly hurling teams are no less at home in any ground from Ballyskenach to Clonmore, and I'll say it again, this kind of nonsense is irrelevant to the discussion.

Yes I would like to see one NHL tie played in Birr, but only one, since our championship home venue is Tullamore and it would be daft that the team could have a big Leinster championship home game and there wouldn't have been any Offaly games there in the Spring. Like I said, this is a league system where we'll have either two or three home games a year, so one game is the most that can be done. I would like to see an NFL game there too, absolutely. The home game against Limerick would have been a good option this year. I'd like to see MHC and U21HC games mixed around, I'd like to see the IHC final decided depending on who's in it, and I'd prefer to see the SHC semis stay in Tullamore, to be fair to the finalists and since attendances for those games have been very good. Walsh Cup games in an ideal world would go to Banagher, Kinnitty, Clara and other club grounds imho. All of that is only my opinion of course.

I wouldn't be as worried about Birr assuaging health and safety concerns as much as I would their ability to hold games in bad weather too - it looked great on Saturday for the colleges hurling (though the paltry attendance at a great game gave the lie to the idea that people love going to good hurling matches in SBP) but we've never doubted that SBP looks great in good weather - that's not a given for the league. If they had been given the Laois game this year, would they have been able to hold it? I genuinely don't know.

I also don't think it's too much to ask that the county board won't be at a loss for the game being held there. People wanting the games in Birr for the good of Offaly hurling is one thing, even if I don't necessarily buy into their line of thinking. People wanting games in SBP so that more lads can sneak in for free, or so that the club can make a few euro, have no place in the debate. This is all about the good of Offaly hurling, selfish considerations need to be left out.


Thinking further down the line, I don't like the idea of as you put it "a step in the right direction". On a personal and public level, we all know the negotiating tactic that is negotiate a position between A and Z, let's call it M, and then consider it a good step, and try to reopen negotiations based on starting points of M and Z immediately afterwards. I've been in relationships where that kind of trickery went on and it drove me cracked, we certainly shouldn't let it happen here. The key thing here is that we need to put this debate to bed, and to accept that we can't just come up with a solution that will make everyone happy. Taking baby steps means that it will never go away, and will continue to be a distraction from the real issues that are facing Offaly hurling. That's why we need to come to a county-wide agreement on what's the best way forward, plan how to get to that point, and go and do it. Then what we also need to do is to be sure that it's taken off the table, and insist that all the sniping stops.

The most harmful aspect of this debate from what I could tell was the undermining of Tullamore that went on. This reached it's peak in the run up to last year's minor championship match with Laois at Portlaoise, where one of the management team said that they were happy to be playing in Portlaoise and that they'd prefer that to playing in Tullamore. If a man charged with the development of Offaly hurling at such a crucial level doesn't appreciate how harmful a comment like that is, then we're at nothing. God knows if he's saying that to a journalist, I shudder to think what he'd be saying in a pub, comments which would filter back to young players. I've also heard anecdotally of a lot of fathers of players feeding young lads the same lines of schyte. I've said this a thousand times, and I'll keep saying it - it's a field of grass. If there are problems with "dead sod" and all this stuff, which I don't buy into at all, then fix them - but stop feeding this idea that our county ground is not a good place for Offaly teams to hurl. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy once we do that. We're going to have to hurl there and our players need to walk into every home venue - Tullamore, Banagher, Birr, the lot - feeling that this is our home, our castle, and we're not going to get walked on in our own venue. This can't happen if half of them walk in having bought into the propaganda that we can't hurl in O'Connor Park.

We need to just come to an agreement here, and whatever games are allocated to Birr, or to South Offaly venues in general, needs to be on the basis that the issue is resolved, and to move on. No more debates, no more motions, no nothing - what is agreed is agreed, and if you don't subscribe to that, you can keep ploughing your own furrow. If Birr and other clubs don't agree to that, then there's no point even sitting down and doing anything, because we're just going to keep cannibalising ourselves until ten years later we get knocked out in the first round of the Christy Ring Cup by a team like Kildare or Down, and everyone suddenly wonders what the hell happened.

[Buck Face]

It is factual and not emotive to say that the most important club and intercounty hurling games were originally and have most commonly been played in Birr and also that the game flourished there (i.e. it is the home of hurling in Offaly).

Personally I don’t think the spiritual side of the county team performing better is a major player in the case for returning hurling to Birr but I certainly would not be as dismissive of the impact incorporeal things have on teams and individuals in any sport.

I don’t why it is so concerning as to whether or not games can be played on the pitch in particularly bad weather. We have had one of the wettest February’s on record so it should be encouraging for you to see the field looking great after all the recent rainfall. Anyway, as it would be the exception and not the rule I think this kind of nonsense, as you would put it, is irrelevant to the discussion.

We’ve debated the financial ins and outs before so not getting back in to them for now unless there is something new to add.

I’d agree that we shouldn’t apply the ‘a’ to ‘m’ to ‘z’ method but for different reasons. I think it actually weakens the position of ‘a’ and would prefer to move to ‘z’ now that is has been agreed that a move is necessary.

So you don’t buy into different sods being better than others? You might as well tell me that beating a stick off a leather jacket is the same sound as beating a bodhrán. It is also ironic that you highlight the importance of ‘feeling that this is our home, our castle’ after dismissing it as nonsense earlier.

One thing I wish we could agree on is that we stop referring to ‘south’ and ‘north’ Offaly as much there is no such dividing line that I know of. Time to unite and move forward is right.

[Lone Shark]

(1) There was a point when many of the most important games in Kilkenny hurling were played in Tullaroan, there was a long spell when Galway hurling was based in Athenry, there was a time when Laois hurling was entirely based in small pockets in the West of the county and that they got little or nothing out of Portlaoise. You have to move on at some point and realise that we are the only serious hurling county that gets so little out of the county town and surrounding area, or did up until a few years ago anyway. The history of where the sport was played is not something that should be considered in a world where things change and evolve all the time.

(2) The field was looking great on Saturday because as I was told by one of the ground staff, it had seen basically no traffic for the months of January and February. That's not a luxury that could be afforded if Birr were awarded Walsh Cup games and multiple NHL games, as they are seeking. Until the field proves otherwise, it cannot be trusted in bad weather. I'm very disappointed that nobody either from the Birr side or the county board side chose to prove a point by putting some games on the field over the winter. On the weekend of the NHL match vs Laois, Offaly's minor footballers played a home MFL game against Clare in Mullingar. If SBP had put their hands up to host that game and the field had been in good shape, then this issue would be resolved right now and it would be off the table. You seem to think that I revel in the fact that Birr is unproven in bad weather, I don't - I just hate that the evidence suggesting they're no able for heavy rain exists and we're expected to take it all on faith that they'll be fine.

(3) We've debated the financial ins and outs but the county board haven't. That whole aspect has been conspicuous by its absence. I'm not asking you to speak for the Birr club, but I'd feel a lot better about this if their position was stated in terms of what kind of rent, if any, they plan on charging for use of a facility that ultimately, isn't needed. Whether it's wanted or not is what we're all talking about here.

(4) We accept that some people, including yourself, would prefer Z. Others would prefer A. I'm probably somewhere around an F, but that's not my point. The point is that the overall settlement is going to be somewhere in the middle, and I'm stressing that it needs to be the end of this God-forsaken debate when it happens. It is absolutely crucial that whatever is agreed between the county board and Birr club, provided that it's ratified by the clubs in the county, needs to be the very last word on the matter until the significant facts change, which shouldn't happen for years. If the next step after an agreed settlement is for Birr-advocates to reopen their campaign based on the new settlement as a starting position, then there's no point even starting this process. This is for all clubs in the county to decide and once their decision is made, it has to be final. There will be concessions all round, and people need to accept them and move on. Everything that's happening in this debate so far suggests that Birr advocates are going to keep on at this and keep undermining OCP up until the point where they get absolutely everything they want - which is unlikely to happen, so we'll have this cloud over our county forever.

(5) Of course there are some sods better than others, that's not what I said and you know it. My point is that I've heard people from the Birr area claim that the OCP sod is not up to scratch, yet when pressed, I can't get any of them to say what exactly is wrong with it. I know intercounty players from other counties who have said that they think it's fantastic in Tullamore, but that's beside the point. Critics of the Tullamore field need to actually get to accurately describe what's wrong with it - is it not fast enough, too fast, too big, not flat enough, too flat, or what the hell is it so it can be fixed. Any time I press anyone on this I get some watery answer along the lines of "Ah it just doesn't feel right". This drives me cracked - either diagnose the problem, or else admit that there is nothing wrong with it (as I suspect) and shut up about it.

(6) I do think that we should feel comfortable on every Offaly home ground, but we differ greatly on what to do given our current starting point. I believe that we need to curtail the damage done by critics peddling pishrógs about Tullamore field and make it that our hurlers feel at home everywhere. You seem to think that the solution is to give up on Tullamore, even though our championship home games will be played there for the foreseeable future.




What all this reminds me of is when I was a small and argumentative child, and like all children, I tended to want my own way. Like all children, that wasn't realistic - yet I was generally quite logical, even then. If Mam or Dad took the time out to explain to me why they were taking the decisions they were, I was usually fine, since there was a reason. But when I asked why something was the case and I got short shrift, something like "It just is, and that's that" it drove me absolutely silly. I feel like this is happening all over again here any time I ask the key questions on this topic. It almost feels condescending, as if us mere mortals who are just patrons of the GAA in the county wouldn't understand and explaining the reasons for moving the games is beneath the guardians of the sport in the holy lands.

Question - What makes Birr the "home" of Offaly hurling when no other county seems to entertain this concept, and when it is just one of twelve senior clubs in the county?
Answer - It just is. History, tradition, etc...

Question - Why should we believe that there will be bigger crowds at games in Birr than would be the case in Tullamore, when there is absolutely zero evidence to back this up?
Answer - There just will. History, tradition, etc...

Question - Why do you believe that the SBP field is superior to the OCP surface for hurling
Answer - It just is.

Question - Why should we believe that SBP will be fine to host games in February, when recent history suggests otherwise?
Answer - It just will. It's a better field. See above.

Question - How do we know that the county board won't be left out of pocket from playing games in Birr, and what assurances are Birr prepared to give in that regard?
Answer - It'll be fine. There will be bigger crowds. See above.

Question - The clubs in the environs of Birr town have had the promotional advantage of Offaly's home games on their doorstep for the guts of a century. Why is it so unfair that the clubs in the environs of Tullamore have this advantage now, for less than a decade?
Answer - It just is.

[joe bloggs]

one very important point in all of this , is the effect of a partisan support can have in a tight game. It is the same in every sport in the world. There is no rational reason why it should be the case that players on the field are influenced by the noise in the stadium, but the results don't lie. Home support counts.

The attendances are brutal in OCP for league games. We were according to some reports outnumbered by Limerick fans (I know it was a dead rubber and Limerick are Munster champions, but still!). I doubt that would happen in Birr. Also in a smaller ground the noise levels appear to be increased, thus making the home team feel it has more support. Referees are human, and we have all seen them sway to the home team (old Trafford effect before Mayes ). The smallest thing could swing a tight match. I'm not saying this will address the obvious current failings in Offaly hurling, but as Tesco say every little helps.

LS I would also take issue with saying Offaly is the only county with this issue. I know many people in various clubs in Galway, and trust me, Pearce stadium getting all the games is a major bugbear for them

[Lone Shark]

I get the noise factor, and agree completely that 2000 people in Birr will look and feel like a bigger crowd than 2000 people in Tullamore. I don't think this single factor outweighs other points, but it is both obvious and well established that there will be greater noise levels in a ground that is closer to full capacity.


However this point that the attendances in OCP are brutal for league games is an outright lie. They are well down on Birr attendances for league games in the 1990s, when we had a team of All Ireland contenders, but they are broadly similar to attendances for Birr league games in the three or four years before the move, when Offaly's intercounty teams were roughly at the same level as they are now. As you pointed out, Sunday's game was a dead rubber for Offaly and a vital game for Limerick - I wouldn't be at all surprised if Limerick had the bigger support base, and I expect they would have had if the game was in Birr too.

This is what I mean about facts and myths. People are going around saying that crowds would be bigger in SBP, when the actual attendance numbers suggest otherwise.

As for the Galway issue, I lived in Galway for the guts of six years and did a lot of work down there, I know the lie of the land very well in that county. You have traditionalists who give out about hurling matches being played in Pearse Stadium for similar reasons, as lots of lads in their forties and fifties feel that the matches should be in Athenry. Indeed if you did a survey of lads in their seventies, they'd tell you that games should be in Ballinasloe. However when it comes to county board level, the issue is dead in the water. It's all been sorted out and it's not going to change - it rarely if ever comes up at county board level, players almost never talk about it, and clubs don't go attempting to bring in motions two or three times a year. They've made their transition, it's all wrapped up, and they've moved on. Notably, they too have seen an upturn in their fortunes around the city, with clubs from the west like Moycullen making the step up to senior, while as you can tell from the success of clubs like Portumna and St Thomas, it's not as if the more "traditional" areas have suffered.

They've done all this in a county that's noted for in-fighting, and when moving to a venue that is probably the most inaccessible county ground in the country due to location on the West side of the city. There are hurling clubs in Galway that would be nearly 90 mins drive from Pearse Stadium, nobody in Offaly is more than an hour from OCP. Yet we've made so much more fuss than them, and we've let the whole thing linger.

[Buck Face]

LS - In reply to your comment before last -

(1) Excuse my ignorance but I’d be very interested to know when the county finals were moved out of Tullaroan as they are the club with the most county titles in Kilkenny (20) but only 1 in the last 66 years. It would seem not to have done much for mighty village of the Walshes. I think you are adding further weight to my argument.

If we look at Laois, Portlaoise may for a brief period have benefited from hurling finals being moved to the county town but it certainly did nothing to either improve the geographic spread or standard of hurling in the county at any stage in the history of Laois hurling. And I would suggest that this is because it was moved into a football stronghold. Ring any bells? Again adding weight to the argument against a move.

To add to this, when you say we need to benefit from our county town you seem to be strongly suggesting that hurling in the Tullamore area has benefited from having finals in the town in recent years. It is an unusual point to make for someone opposed to returning hurling to Birr. Normally we hear that it doesn’t matter where the games are played, it’s only another 15 minutes down the road and it’s what makes sense financially (and the pitch is as good as any of course). I would actually agree that having the finals in the area has an impact but just like in the case of Laois, it will have little impact compared to the impact it has when playing games in hurling strongholds, like in the case of Kilkenny (it certainly didn’t improve Kilkenny's football by moving to the ‘county town’).

(2) Fact is we have had one of the wettest winters on record but they are already playing in St Brendan’s Park on a great surface. Tells its own story.

As for Cusack Park in Mullingar, it has one of the best sods in the country, so much so that when they planned on moving to outside the town during the boom they were going to bring it with them (hard for you to believe I know).

(3) The financial element is one regularly referred to by people in favour of keeping hurling out of Birr and yes the figures supporting this are 'conspicuous by their absence'. And when you say for just using a venue that is ultimately not needed that is to forget the point you make under (1) which suggests it will benefit the hurling in the area will benefit from using the venue. Something of great value in itself.

And for the record, Birr did previously offer the grounds for a County final free of charge and with County Board officials manning the turnstiles so it is not correct to suggest that they have been silent.

(4) So when you start off by saying ‘we’ you mean the people at ‘F’. At times I felt like you were at ‘A’ as ‘F’ is a dangerous middle ground. I’m trying to keep up.

I think you will find that people on both sides are well capable of undermining (even by suggesting that the others are doing all the undermining backs this up).

A long term agreement would seem to be a good idea.

(5) There are great differences between what you refer to simply a ‘thousand times’ as fields of grass.

Just for your benefit and in my opinion (apologies to everyone else), Tullamore has a harsh sandy/cohesive soil which is good for drainage but not anything as cohesive as the field in Birr which is more like a natural topsoil with added sand to aid the drainage which is naturally much more cohesive.

Also Tullamore has more mini-undulations than the field in Birr (longer wavelengths in Birr if you like). How about that?

To suggest that they are simply fields of grass does display a certain ignorance towards the differing qualities of playing fields.

Unfortunately these things are not a quick fix. One only has to look at the difficulties encountered by monster professional Clubs when establishing new stadia.

(6) Whatever about feeling at home on the sod it would help to at least be welcome in the grounds.

If Birr can’t take the envisaged attendance for matches then by all means play the game in our county town. I and everyone else from Offaly should always feel at home there even if it is not the home of hurling in the county.

(the end of your post doesn’t merit comment)

As for the recent post –

Have you got the attendance figures to hand that you refer to? I’d be interested in seeing them (as you are accusing someone of lying I guess you definitely have them at hand?).

Anyway, you could hardly use Galway hurlers as a role model? I guess you may have to when you take a deeper look at the facts of the other 2 counties that you heralded in both Laois and Kilkenny.

[Lone Shark]

Okay, that was more like it. Actually logical debate, which is what's been missing - welcome back, you're still the most coherent pro-Birr contributor I've heard online or offline, which is why it was disheartening to hear you revert to the home/tradition guff.

(1) My point in citing other counties is that eventually, county games tend to be played in the county town. Admittedly Tullaroan hasn't hosted meaningful Kilkenny games in donkey's years, but all I was saying here is that there was a time when it was central, and now it isn't. Things change. I wasn't trying to make any bigger point than that.

Neither am I disagreeing that of course there is a promotional value to having big games in an area - and I've never said otherwise. However this debate is not about the greater good of one club as opposed to another, it's about the greater good of Offaly as a whole. If Birr had the better ground and we could play all our games there, then I'd be agreeing that the hurling should be there. What we're trying to ascertain is what's best for Offaly, not what's best for Birr or Tullamore. I just don't see historical precedent as a real reason here, these are two towns and neither is automatically entitled to host the games, or to cite local considerations. Tullamore has the better stadium, they will host our championship matches, so it stands to reason that it should be there.

(2) We've had the wettest winter on record certainly, and Birr has just successfully hosted a game IN MID MARCH after a dry week, having minded the ground all through the winter. All that has proved is that Birr can hold a game after a dry week, when there was actually a bit of warmth out as well. However that's not at issue here. We're talking about Birr's ability to host games in January and early February, since that's when some of the league, and the Walsh Cup, is played. That remains unproven.

Also I've always liked the ground in Cusack Park - I've never said otherwise. It's a poor county ground for decent crowds or for comfort in the stand, but why would I find that anecdote about the sod hard to believe - what am I missing?

(3) Hurling in Birr will benefit Birr, hurling in Tullamore will benefit Tullamore. I think we can both agree on that. Since the county board is charged with boosting hurling all over the county, it's fair to say that picking one area over another for that reason shouldn't be on the table. I wasn't aware that Birr offered the ground for the county final free of charge, and I'm delighted to hear it - though I'd point out here that this is one of the games that are not up for debate, since Birr doesn't have the capacity to hold the Offaly county hurling final right now. If they offered that game and only that game, I would suspect cute hoorism. Can I ask, did they offer the same for the league/walsh cup/underage games? If so, my compliments to the club and that does change my viewpoint considerably, and I'll be happy to reflect that in the paper.

(4) When I say "We", I mean GAA club members in Offaly, including those of all viewpoints. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but everyone of these people has a right to be involved in this debate, and everyone of those people accepts that there are different points of view out there. Neither did I say that ONLY one side is doing all the undermining. I've seen one side undermining firsthand, which is why I cited it. If there are instances where people are doing the same for the other side, I'll happily call that out for the destructive behaviour that it is too, I just haven't seen it.

(5) Outstanding - this is exactly the kind of answer I've looked for and haven't got. I'm not a horticulturalist or anything similar, so I'm not qualified to judge, but that doesn't mean I can't recognise spoofing in others, which is all that "dead sod" nonsense is. This is actually a meaningful contribution and I'm going to examine this further - so thank you, I'm always delighted to get more actual information on the topic.

You'll note either that I never said that fields were all the same - I just hate starting a match with the view point that "we never hurl well there", or "that place is a graveyard for us". I live in Roscommon now, home of the most dire county ground surface you could possibly imagine. Rest assured I know full well that there are fields which are better than others. My point is that I've spoken to hurlers from Dublin and Kilkenny, both of whom praised the OCP surface to the highest degree. (Niall Corcoran and Tommy Walsh, for what it's worth). I've heard secondhand (i.e. through Anthony Cunningham and the Galway hurlers) that they rate it very highly too. All I've heard in Birr's favour is the kind of waffle I cited above - hence I'm delighted to have a base for further examination. I may give you a call on this over the next few weeks if that's okay?

(6) Both Birr and Tullamore have had issues in the past with excessive "policing" and I'll be the first to agree that OCP in particular doesn't always offer a friendly welcome to visitors, they are the worse offender in this regard - I certainly see this in the media section where we are the envy of the country up until twenty minutes after the final whistle, when people get horsed out at a vital time for their job. I'm still waiting for the day that certain people cut in on the Sunday game after a match and interrupt Ger Loughnane to tell him that he has five minutes left and then he'll be locked in. This has to be fixed. It's not an excuse to move venue in my opinion, but it is a problem, without doubt.

(7) I've looked for these actual numbers time and again what I was told by a county board member (who didn't want to go on the record) was that they actually got more money in the door in Tullamore in the three or four years after the switch than they did in Birr beforehand - though I believe the year in Division two hurling against Carlow/Kerry/Wicklow and the like may have been counted in that. On a game by game basis, three management committee members have all said that attendances in Tullamore are at least as good if not better than they were in Birr (two of which would be South Offaly people) but no, I don't have hard numbers, despite my best attempts. Still, with all due respect to Joe Bloggs, the crowds look similar, the revenue is up based on annual county board accounts, so I don't know what basis there is for saying that crowds are down.