Kilcormac lodge an objection to semi-final fiasco

[concrete]

i don't think this will disrupt either of the finalists so people should stop going on about that, as it stands the game goes ahead as planned on sunday so tullamore and coolderry will train this week as normal and get themselves ready for the final.
i have no problem with kk lodging an appeal, their players have trained for 8 months like every other team and if they feel they were wronged in some way then their entitled to appeal, i also think the appeal will be thrown out and the game will go ahead as planned sunday.
to the game itself, i think coolderry will win, not by the 6-9 points some people are sayin, but i think they'll win.
their team is better balanced and i think theie forwards will score more from play than tullamore. dooley will keep the scoreboard ticking over from frees but carroll is also an accomplished free taker so that will even itself out, hence the importance of scoring from play. tullamores back are hurling well but so too are coolderry's backs.
i hope it's as exciting as the football final and the refereee isn't the talking point after the match, which i don't think he will because gavin is a good referee in fairness to him

[ditchhurler]

I'll tell you what All Star you stick to your insults and I'll stick to looking forward to another county final.You can call me a sunshine supporter all you want, I couldnt care less. You don't know me so how could you know anything about what games, i attend, what games i play or the likes. I hope we get thousands of "sunshine supporters" on Sunday, and by the colour of the town I think we just might. I admit my rant about the punishment was wrong and I do retract fully.

And while we're on it OCP is technically a neutral venue. You see our pitches are O'Brien Park since the county board leased OCP off us, so all our games in OCP are technically neutral games for us.

[backofthenet]

In fairness Ditch Hurler the game on sunday in O'Connor Park is a home game for Tullamore, whether it be leased by the county board or not, it is in the centre of the town and all of the tullamore hurlers know it like the back of their hands. It is a great advantage to play in your own town no doubt about it, the emergence of Tullamore has happened since games have switched north from Birr, although it certainly isnt the major factor in Tullamore competing, having your games in your home pitch close to your own support cant be underestimated.

[concrete]

so the reason birr won all their titles over the last 10 or so years was because they were playing all the finals in birr??? don't think so, being played in tullamore or not if coolderry are good enough they will win, no matter where the game is played

[chrism]

I am amazed at the reactions contained in relation to the issue of Kilcormac Killoughey lodging an objection to the farce that was played out before my eyes in O'Connor Park on Sunday 3rd October, and indeed the double standards of many of the so-called "Town Faithful", who only the day before the semi-final were appealing against the suspension of Kevin Martin....what is the difference between the two instances, I ask? Surely Tullamore felt that an injustice was carried out in the handling of the suspension of Kevin Martin.....similarly KK have a similar belief in the way in which the County Semi-Final was handled, both by the County board and the match officials on the day.

Two of the best referees in Ireland (not just in Offaly), as is evidenced by the number of high profile games handed down by Central GAA authorities to both Tony Carroll and Brian Gavin, were not used on the day and I believe Mr Teehan took significant umbrage at anyone questioning his authority in the appointment of the officials for the day....Mr Teeahn is appointed as Chairman of the County Board and as such is answerable to the County Board...perhaps we can relieve Mr Teehan of his role at the next County AGM. Tony Carroll was under the stand in the dressing room area talking to the dinger while the dinger had a smoke between the two games, while Brian Gavin was refereeing a Camogie County Final at 1.30 pm in Kilcormac (at least the Camogie County Board had the vision and sense to appoint the best referee in the County to one of its most high profile games). How Declan Cooke was appointed to referee the game is beyond me and thousands of others in GAA circles in Offaly. If there was a sending off offence by a KK player in a blue helmet, why was the play allowed to progress for a full 45 seconds to the point where KK were awarded a free in the middle of the park? Surely (in the absence of an advantage rule in hurling) the play should have been stopped, the free awarded to Tullamore, and any caution administered immediately. Then we had the dinger give his tuppence ha'penny worth and the whole situation descended into farce. How can a referee in any game, let alone a county semi-final, have such a lack of awareness of the rules of the game. How can a referee arbitrarily hand out yellow cards when he is not certain of the person to whom the caution should have been issued....perhaps we should have handed him a programme with all the players names listed and asked him to pick one!!!!

For the first time in many years I will not be attending the county final on Sunday as a protest agaisnt the way in which the players and spectators are abused and mistreated by the Offaly County board in gerneral. I will save my €20 and go to four club rugby games, where the rules of the game are respected and implemented by both players and referees....and indeed administrators. I would also point out that the first person onto the field outside of the 29 players on the field at the time of the melee was a Tullamore official in a flourescent yellow bib....

[joe bloggs]

Chrism, I'd say you'd be the first lad sitting in the stand to roar at a ref "talk to your linesman/umpire" if you thought a ref had missed something, or complain about a ref not giving advantage if a lad from your team was bearing down on goal.
Lets just say we give all semi finals to Gavin and Carroll from now on, where will we be then in 10 years time when those lads move on. How many refs are there capable of taking charge of a senior game at the moment? Not too many I would say, but the only solution is to give younger refs a chance to prove themselves.
Fair play to lads like Cooke for putting themselves out there week in week out. I HAVE been critical of mistakes made by him and other ref's in the past, but then they are only human. mistakes by players and refs are part of every game, and they give us something to talk about.
I've only ever taken the whistle for the odd challenge game and I'll tell you that's not simple. I'm sure to do it for senior championship takes real courage and character.
I have heard Cooke is retiring from refereeing, so maybe you might like to take his place next year.

BTW Declan, I'm sure you don't log in to read our musings, but if you do, I for one hope to see you back out there next year

[townman]

I am amazed at the reactions contained in relation to the issue of Kilcormac Killoughey lodging an objection to the farce that was played out before my eyes in O'Connor Park on Sunday 3rd October, and indeed the double standards of many of the so-called "Town Faithful", who only the day before the semi-final were appealing against the suspension of Kevin Martin....what is the difference between the two instances, I ask? Surely Tullamore felt that an injustice was carried out in the handling of the suspension of Kevin Martin.....similarly KK have a similar belief in the way in which the County Semi-Final was handled, both by the County board and the match officials on the day.

Two of the best referees in Ireland (not just in Offaly), as is evidenced by the number of high profile games handed down by Central GAA authorities to both Tony Carroll and Brian Gavin, were not used on the day and I believe Mr Teehan took significant umbrage at anyone questioning his authority in the appointment of the officials for the day....Mr Teeahn is appointed as Chairman of the County Board and as such is answerable to the County Board...perhaps we can relieve Mr Teehan of his role at the next County AGM. Tony Carroll was under the stand in the dressing room area talking to the dinger while the dinger had a smoke between the two games, while Brian Gavin was refereeing a Camogie County Final at 1.30 pm in Kilcormac (at least the Camogie County Board had the vision and sense to appoint the best referee in the County to one of its most high profile games). How Declan Cooke was appointed to referee the game is beyond me and thousands of others in GAA circles in Offaly. If there was a sending off offence by a KK player in a blue helmet, why was the play allowed to progress for a full 45 seconds to the point where KK were awarded a free in the middle of the park? Surely (in the absence of an advantage rule in hurling) the play should have been stopped, the free awarded to Tullamore, and any caution administered immediately. Then we had the dinger give his tuppence ha'penny worth and the whole situation descended into farce. How can a referee in any game, let alone a county semi-final, have such a lack of awareness of the rules of the game. How can a referee arbitrarily hand out yellow cards when he is not certain of the person to whom the caution should have been issued....perhaps we should have handed him a programme with all the players names listed and asked him to pick one!!!!

For the first time in many years I will not be attending the county final on Sunday as a protest agaisnt the way in which the players and spectators are abused and mistreated by the Offaly County board in gerneral. I will save my €20 and go to four club rugby games, where the rules of the game are respected and implemented by both players and referees....and indeed administrators. I would also point out that the first person onto the field outside of the 29 players on the field at the time of the melee was a Tullamore official in a flourescent yellow bib....

was it Declan cookes fault that K/K players couldn't behave themselfs and start the off the ball stuff was it Declan Cooke fault that the supporter came out of the stand
and onto the field to fight the same thug that was sent from a hurling field the evening before. was it cookes fault that K/K lost the game themselfs
go to your rugby games what spectators were abused, the K/K supporter was the only one abused people or players bye jumping in to hurt a player
i take it your a K/K supporter take your beating like a man and move on what was your excuse for losing last year's final.

you would be sick to the teeth reading about how K/K were robbed or lost the semil-final in was their own fault blaming the ref is the best one
lets enjoy the final this sunday and you can enjoy your rugby game and we will be all happy then

[Lone Shark]

At the risk of getting splinters in my behind from all the fence sitting, people would do well to divorce the feeling of being aggrieved after the game with the feeling that an appeal is appropriate. There is universal agreement that Tullamore did the better hurling over the amount of time that was played, but that the amount of time that was played was woefully inadequate. However as we all know, and natural justice has nothing to do with it, the rules make no mention of insufficient injury time. Equally, Kilcormac/Killoughey may have had at least one player harshly sent off, but it was harsh in the sense that those individuals might have been hard done by - you couldn't say that K/K didn't commit enough serious offences to justify two red cards at least.

Also, a lot of people are annoyed by the way it was done, in the sense that the appeal wasn't lodged last Monday, which would have had the whole process over and done with. It creates the impression that it was done this way in order to discommode the finalists. That may be the case or it may not, I'm not privy to the thought process of the Kilcormac/Killoughey club committee, but it gives a bad impression, particularly when we all know that the appeal will be thrown out.

The refereeing issue is another matter entirely. We all know who the main hurling referees are in Offaly, who the six men are that would be appointed if there are six championship matches taking place at the same time. Equally, we all know that two of those referees are highly competent, but the others tend not to be as consistent. However it all boils down to one simple thing - there aren't enough referees in the county. What's more, not alone are there not enough refs, a large proportion of the referees in the county don't want to take senior championship hurling. They're happy to do football only even though they might be capable of both, or alternatively they just want to do underage games. As a county, we're not in a position to pick and choose, so it's not as if there are plenty of refs bubbling under who would love to be given senior championship games.

All of this, of course, is very much a case of chickens coming home to roost. We had a very famous case recently where a referee was attacked, the assailant was protected, and our county board blinked. A punishment was applied, then removed even though the club didn't co-operate, and then a lesser punishment was handed down, and that lesser punishment - having to play away games in the first round of the under 21 championship for two years - wasn't even enforced.

Not long after all this happened, a member of the county board executive took me aside in O'Connor Park before a match and asked that I write a piece looking for referees to come forward. I asked what I thought was a fair question - what kind of masochist would volunteer to referee in Offaly when the county board makes a policy of leaving attacks on referees unpunished - and I was told that "That incident was unfortunate, but it's in the past and has nothing do with the issue now really". Anybody wishing for any referee to step aside - be that Declan Cooke or whoever - would want to be careful what they wish for, because the alternative might be no games at all.

[Long John]

What KK are at is shambolic. They should take their beaten on the chin and move on. Excuse, after excuse after excuse. They went out to flake all around them in the semi and it backfired. Right men sent off or not, KK deserved to have at least two players sent to the line. That gobshite that came out of the stand should be banned for life and if the truth be known he's a very lucky man gardai are not dealing with it.

I have to side with most of the posts here and say Tulamore were full value for their win, and now can KK cop themselves on and put some discipline in place. They have had enough talent over the years to win titles but its always the few clowns that have cost them on the big day.

[biffoabroad]

Does anyone know the status of this appeal? Has a meeting taken place on this issue yet? Or has it been dismissed?

Just in relation to the episode, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the game there are certain points of fact (not opinion) that need to be addressed. 1. Incorrect player sent off 2. Time allowed was wholly inadequate and left the second half about 6 minutes short in playing time. There seems to be a lot of opinion along the lines of so what, K/K played rough, a supporter joined the brawl, supporters abused the ref etc. All fair enough, but are separate issues that can also be addressed by the county board too, but separately and on their own merit. K/K have every right to make an appeal in a supposedly democratic organisation such as the GAA if they believe that they were victims of an injustice. It is not good enough to just say "take it on the chin" when there have been obvious mistakes made, and I honestly believe that the County Board just want this to go away so they do not have to address their own short comings. Let there be a meeting/hearing and a judgement/recommendations made in due course, in the meantime the County Board should issue a clear statement to say that the result stands and the county final goes ahead, with this issue addressed afterwards properly.

I am a K/K supporter and when I first heard of the appeal I was dismayed by it as many people will view it as sour grapes. I don't want to speculate on the motives of those who put forward the appeal, but I would hope it is a principled stand that might effect future change rather than a desperate attempt to try get a replay.

[Lone Shark]

I don't want to speculate on the motives of those who put forward the appeal, but I would hope it is a principled stand that might effect future change rather than a desperate attempt to try get a replay.

That's the key thing here though. If the goal was to bring about a different way of doing things, appealing this result wouldn't be the way to go about it, in fact it's counterproductive. If K/K accepted the result but then went about bringing in a "Time off-Time on" system, or perhaps a different set of sanctions for pitch incursions, that would be fine. Equally they could table a motion of no confidence in the fixtures secretary for their choice of referee, orany one of a number of similar actions. These, if accompanied with the message that the club felt that they wished Tullamore well but that they were disappointed with the incidents contained in the game, would have carried a lot of weight. What they've done just looks like a desperate attempt to salvage a replay, whatever the intention was.

In fact the club could have done a lot worse than release a statement, now that I think of it.

[biffoabroad]

Loneshark, I agree pretty much with what you say. I am not to familiar with the appeals processes available to clubs in situations like this. I also agree a statement from K/K explaining the reasons for their appeal and a "fair play" to Tullamore would have helped too. I think the appeal for a replay is ridiculous and counter productive, but perhaps it was the only 'real" option that was open in terms of creating a stronger awareness of the situation re: on-off time and general incompetence of the officials that day. I believe that there is an ingrained culture in GAA officaldom of burying heads in the sand until things blow over and people forget, summed up perfectly in your example earlier regarding the very lax punishments for attacking a referee.

Just a thought regarding referees. I am loath to criticise anyone brave enough to ref and who gives up the time to do the job. However there seems to be a consensus on here that the standard of refereeing is not up to scratch, and anecdotal evidence of referees smoking in the tunnel at half time and what not instead of being shocking is sadly unsurprising. Is there an argument, given how much player fitness and training has advanced, that a panel of senior referees be chosen each year that undergo extra training. What about the senior panel of refs meeting once a week during the season to go over any laws, controversies etc that may arise. Also, these sessions could have some fitness work built in (maybe even a fitness test to make sure they are up to scratch) and work on field positioning.

[Plain of the Herbs]

As Tony Carroll has been mentioned a couple of times - as far as I am aware there is a bye-law in Offaly which precludes a referee whose club is involved in a County semi-final from refereeing the other semi-final. It would make sense too - Tony's decisions would come under immense scrutiny if Kinnitty had won the first semi-final.

Two of the best referees in Ireland (not just in Offaly), as is evidenced by the number of high profile games handed down by Central GAA authorities to both Tony Carroll and Brian Gavin, were not used on the day and I believe Mr Teehan took significant umbrage at anyone questioning his authority in the appointment of the officials for the day....