No more U12 Championship

[DD]

Have a look at the link below at how well the underage system is ran in Kildare. They seem to have a good balance of competitive leagues/championships and Go Games blitzes but the most impressive thing is how well orgamised everything is - we're light years behind in Offaly.

http://northboard.kildare.gaa.ie/

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Quite simply a disgraceful decision.

[club125]

I'm positive that it will be voted through at Congress next week anyway and will be forced upon Offaly in 2011 to implement. However it seems there will be no major desire among clubs to implement the policy. This will lead to a further deterioration in the provision of games for underage players.

[True Red]

This was voted through at the recent congress but this article from last weekends SIndo showcases an alternative viewpoint.


Nobody loses, nobody wins
By Eamonn Sweeney
Sunday April 25 2010

They were talking football in the village shop on Friday morning. The game between Castlehaven and Bantry the night before had been a cracker, great goals, fine saves, near misses and a heart-stopping finish. "Do you know what," said the man whose children have won six All-Ireland senior medals between them, "but I think the U12 games are the best games of all."

Well, from next year, U12 football and hurling are a pleasure that supporters and, more importantly, players will have to forego. The youngsters from Castlehaven and Bantry may be the last kids from their clubs to ever play championship U12 football thanks to a decision made by last weekend's GAA Congress.

Congress overwhelmingly voted for a move to what are known as 'Go-Games,' 11-a-side matches where every child gets to play on the team, there are no championship games and no winners' medals. Liam O'Neill, chairman of the National Games Development Committee said "the Go-Games model is a must-win model. The 15-a-side games at this age have led to bad behaviour from mentors, and sometimes from supporters and parents. In passing this motion, we are saying to families if you bring your children along to us, they will always be given a game, every time there is a game."

As you can see, Go-Games are surrounded by a halo of virtue to such an extent that to argue against them is to reveal yourself as an insensitive brute who doesn't care about the feelings of little children. So here goes then.

But if I am an insensitive brute, I have company. The two men in the village shop, for example, felt that the demise of the U12 grade would be a disaster. So did the man who stopped his car and got out to tell me just what he thought of the decision and the columnist in our local newspaper who argued that "other sports, not GAA underage, will be the winners in all of this."

What all these men have in common is that they are dedicated members of the Association who have given up many many hours of their lives to, among other things, promoting the games at underage level. They are the kind of people I tend to heed on GAA matters. And I have a hunch that, impressive and all as the majority for the move was at Congress, this is something which will not meet with an overwhelming welcome at grassroots level.

Why not? For one thing, it goes against tradition. Almost anyone who ever played Gaelic football or hurling cut their teeth at U12 level. There are grown men all over this country who can still remember the games they played at that age. Think of how often you read in a profile of a leading inter-county player the reminiscences of an old mentor about the star's first U12 games. That something is traditional does not necessarily render it good but it does mean that you need a good reason to get rid of it.

One thing which has changed is that kids are introduced to Gaelic games at a younger age these days. My own eight-year-old daughter takes part in a basic skills programme at Castlehaven, and enjoys it hugely. I'd agree that anyone her age is too young to play competitively, but when kids are starting at eight, is it not a bit excessive to ask them to wait another four years before they can play a real match?

The idea behind Go-Games is that competitive sport is bad for children. This mentality was followed to its logical conclusion in England where, since the 1980s, many schools have cut out competitive sport, even going to the extreme of banning competition on school sports days. This is now widely seen as a mistake with Prime Minister Gordon Brown vowing to "correct the tragic mistake of reducing the competitive element in school," and Home Secretary Alan Johnson describing it as "absurd and perverse political correctness."

Professor of Sociology at the University of Kent and author Frank Furedi has noted that "anti-competition crusaders advocate a carefully managed therapeutic sporting education for children. They believe that children gain great psychological benefits from co-operative sport since everybody receives applause and gains in self-esteem.

"In reality, children gain nothing from the manufactured forms of tokenistic rituals that accompany such emotionally correct gestures. When every child receives a prize for 'trying their best' the youngsters easily see through such an empty gesture. Even at an early age, they understand that when nobody loses, nobody wins."

The GAA's abolition of competitive games for U12s has more than a tinge of hardcore political correctness about it. It is, for example, part of The Respect Initiative, the very name of which is like something Southwark Council would have come up with in the '80s.

The Respect Initiative, we are told, "aims to promote positive behaviour and ensure that an enriching environment is provided." It includes a checklist for behaviour, which must be "Responsible, Encouraging, Supportive, Positive, Enabling, Considerate, Tolerant." Who could possibly argue with this self-righteous jargon which sounds like the code of conduct for a Californian feminist consciousness raising group?

I'm sure Croke Park can produce facts and figures which will support the move to Go-Games, (though apparently one reason why many delegates to Cork County Board gave the proposals a frosty reception is that they discovered some of the figures being quoted at them came from Australia). Yet it doesn't require a task force or a working group to discover what's right in front of your eyes. Most children enjoy competition. If a group of kids start a football game in a field or on the street they'll keep score and both teams will do their best to win. Because competition is at the heart of sport. Sport without competition might be therapeutic, it might be ideologically sound, it might even be 'enriching' but it's not real sport.

The U12 leagues have started in our local division, Bantry playing Castlehaven, Carbery Rangers playing Sam Maguires, Kilmacabea playing Skibbereen, Clann na nGael playing Kilbrittain. I would wager that most of the young lads donning their club colours for the first time were enjoying themselves immensely and would be shocked to hear that they were being damaged by this exposure to competitive football. The truth is that they will have been waiting impatiently for the chance to be old enough to play for the club since they first kicked a ball. That ambition was not foisted upon them by competitive adults, it's something natural for a sport-loving child.

Liam O'Neill's point about misbehaving mentors and parents is fair enough but to suggest that this tomfoolery is indulged in by anything other than a minority is to commit a gross libel against the average decent GAA mentor and parent. In any event, why should kids be deprived of proper football because of the actions of a few hotheads?

And as for guaranteeing parents that their kid will always get a game if they turn up, well I wouldn't expect my children to get a game if they weren't much good. Someone who isn't good at a game won't enjoy it as much as someone who is. These days there are so many options for kids that all of them can find something they are good at, genuinely good at. They don't need our condescension. My eight-year-old can play the violin, do ballet and swim like a fish. If football works out for her, great. If not, there are other rewarding things to do.

I speak as a moderate footballer who found out in his teens that he was much better at athletics, badminton and table tennis. Even when I was ten, I didn't think I had a right to a place ahead of better players. Learning to accept these things is part of growing up.

Congress made a truly bad decision last weekend. The underage structure which has served the GAA well in the past should have been preserved. As someone said in the shop Friday morning, "They don't feel pressure at that age. When they get a bag of chips after the game, they have it all forgotten."

Hang on a second. Chips? Greasy, unhealthy, fattening chips? Surely the mentors should be ensuring that the players eat healthily? Carrot sticks perhaps, or lumps of broccoli. I feel another recommendation to Congress coming on.

In the meantime, the kids will get on with enjoying the last ever U12 championships before it's taken away from them.

- Eamonn Sweeney

[azoffaly]

I think Sweeney is missing the point here. The Go-games are competitive in that scores are kept, there is a winner, but there is no championship fervour. Everyone starts off the games equal, and everyone plays the same amount. There's no one 'knocked out'. Everyone plays, everyone tries to win, and everyone enjoys it. That's the idea.

[backofthenet]

Eamonn Sweeney made my point exactly (far better than i ever could truth be told).

There was nothing wrong with the structure, being involved in juvenile soccer i have been rang by one parent in particular about why her son wasnt getting more game time...and this is at U-15 level!!! I tried explaining to her as gently as possible that I have 23 players for 11 spots, and id played him every 4-5 games and couldnt really do much more if I was to try and keep the games competitive!

The simple fact is, kids know who is good at what. Ask any normal 12 year old and they will tell you who the best player at soccer, hurling or rugby is....so why are we trying to tell them there all the best player???!!!

The reason the GAA are passing this is to get more players involved, in my opinion this will lead to drab matches, one team starting their best team...thrashing the other for half a match, then putting on a brand new team for the second half and getting thrashed...sounds very like a practise match to me, rather than a championship match.

Mark my words some of the coaches and underage players will be unhappy with this situation and some of the better players will turn to Rugby / Soccer for that competitive game. If I go playing a practise match for one of our senior sides, most of the time we throw on 6-7 subs to give lads a game, If Im honest, i dont enjoy those games half as much as a competitive one, be that league or championship, and I think a lot of kids will feel the same.

[Lone Shark]

In my opinion, congress took the only sensible course of action here. In the article posted above by Sweeney he paints a picture that under 12 championship is about to be replaced by some form of sanitised, drab event not unlike the special school in the Simpsons where eight kids played musical chairs with ten seats. These kids are still playing games against teams from other clubs, they still need to score goals and points and they still end the matches with a winner and a loser, the only difference is that it's not "championship" as we all know and love.

However kids don't know it, kids don't even get the significance of it. Kids only want to play games. When I was in national school of course we were playing competitive games in the back yard - usually soccer due to it being easier to play. However we also picked different teams every day, and you'd do well to remember who won two days ago. It probably ended up with "next goal wins", and the crucial point - there were no subs. If that meant 20 a side on a 40 yard long pitch with a tennis ball, so be it.

Just to rebut his points one by one....

What all these men have in common is that they are dedicated members of the Association who have given up many many hours of their lives to, among other things, promoting the games at underage level. They are the kind of people I tend to heed on GAA matters.

Nobody is arguing that everybody's opinion is worthy of respect. The point is that clubs were given the opportunity to vote on this all across Ireland, and in Offaly they wanted the status quo, but in Ireland as a whole, the vote was overwhelmingly to endorse go games. I'm sure there are countless people that are very noteworthy and respectable GAA people who oppose it, but the relevant point is that there are more who are in favour.

Why not? For one thing, it goes against tradition. Almost anyone who ever played Gaelic football or hurling cut their teeth at U12 level. There are grown men all over this country who can still remember the games they played at that age. Think of how often you read in a profile of a leading inter-county player the reminiscences of an old mentor about the star's first U12 games. That something is traditional does not necessarily render it good but it does mean that you need a good reason to get rid of it.

Of course the good and skilled players remember under 12 with fondness. They also remember most of their games with fondness, because they were talented and they were the ones that the crowd applauded. This is not about them. This is about the others, of whom there are many more. The guys who were too small, or too awkward, or whatever it was, at that age. These guys give up - and that was considered fine in the day when the good ones kept playing and we just lost the others, but now the good ones get lost too because they tend to also be good at rugby, or soccer or whatever. Clubs all over Ireland can't field teams at various age groups. Sometimes it's because of population reasons, but in other cases it's because there are a lot of players that simply went off the GAA because they never got to play, or when they did they were the ones that let the side down.

The idea behind Go-Games is that competitive sport is bad for children.

Straw man. The idea is not that competitive sport is bad. The idea that competitive to the level that GAA championship is competitive, is bad, at least at eleven years of age. Soccer and rugby clubs play competitively at underage, but they don't write ballads about successful under 14 teams and put their pictures up in the pub for ten years after. On the one hand, I love the idea that an underage title can mean a lot to a club, but equally it means that there is huge pressure on the players involved. There is nothing wrong with a local championship, or plenty of blitzes where there are winners and losers. Just not these bearpit environments where ten year old kids are exhorted to pull hard because their Dad took a dirty blow from a lad in that parish twenty five years ago.

Even at an early age, they understand that when nobody loses, nobody wins.

Straw man again. That's not what this new system is and Sweeney should know this full well.

The Respect Initiative, we are told, "aims to promote positive behaviour and ensure that an enriching environment is provided." It includes a checklist for behaviour, which must be "Responsible, Encouraging, Supportive, Positive, Enabling, Considerate, Tolerant." Who could possibly argue with this self-righteous jargon which sounds like the code of conduct for a Californian feminist consciousness raising group?

This bit actually angered me a little. It's not that I think that we should live our lives by buzzwords, but Sweeney is transposing his logic to a new generation. He's hankering for the old culture of where you gave respect or you got a clip around the ear - that's just not the way nowadays. We can bemoan the decline in behaviour and manners all we like, but it's a different generation out there, many of whom have grown up in very confusing and difficult family backgrounds, again a rare situation back in the day. He says you can't argue with it, so proceeds to demean it. This isn't debate, this is petty populist point scoring in the worst possible fashion.

(though apparently one reason why many delegates to Cork County Board gave the proposals a frosty reception is that they discovered some of the figures being quoted at them came from Australia)

Ah yes, Australia. It's so far away that it must be rubbish. Despite the fact that they have a lot of similarities in culture and are also one of the fittest, healthiest nations with probably the best pound for pound record in world sport. Why in God's name would we want to learn from those flaming galahs?

The U12 leagues have started in our local division, Bantry playing Castlehaven, Carbery Rangers playing Sam Maguires, Kilmacabea playing Skibbereen, Clann na nGael playing Kilbrittain. I would wager that most of the young lads donning their club colours for the first time were enjoying themselves immensely and would be shocked to hear that they were being damaged by this exposure to competitive football. The truth is that they will have been waiting impatiently for the chance to be old enough to play for the club since they first kicked a ball. That ambition was not foisted upon them by competitive adults, it's something natural for a sport-loving child.

So, kids are loving the local leagues eh? That would be, the same kind of competitions that Go Games is trying to encourage?

Also, again the point that's missed here is that while the kids are looking forward to it, that would be all the kids. Not just the good ones.

Liam O'Neill's point about misbehaving mentors and parents is fair enough but to suggest that this tomfoolery is indulged in by anything other than a minority is to commit a gross libel against the average decent GAA mentor and parent. In any event, why should kids be deprived of proper football because of the actions of a few hotheads?

Because in the GAA, there is little or no will to deal with that idiot minority. They will continue to exist, and they will be allowed to persist in their behaviour. In some cases, as in Offaly not too long ago, they will be allowed step way over the mark and then will be sheltered by their club, even when underage players end up paying the price. If the GAA was willing to take serious and meaningful action against these idiots, and hold the line, then I'd reconsider underage championships in some form.

Saying that we shouldn't let the minority spoil things while at the same time doing nothing to curb the actions of those people is the equivalent of Heathrow Airport saying that only a minority of people want to blow up planes, and even though they're doing nothing to stop them, everyone should travel anyway. (Extreme example I know, but I think it's the same principle.)

And as for guaranteeing parents that their kid will always get a game if they turn up, well I wouldn't expect my children to get a game if they weren't much good. Someone who isn't good at a game won't enjoy it as much as someone who is. These days there are so many options for kids that all of them can find something they are good at, genuinely good at. They don't need our condescension. My eight-year-old can play the violin, do ballet and swim like a fish. If football works out for her, great. If not, there are other rewarding things to do.

Wonderful. The Gaelic Athletic Association - providing Irish traditional pastimes to a maximum of fifteen people in every parish at any given age. This section actually makes me violently angry. What about the kid who isn't very good, but WANTS TO PLAY?????? God forbid they might hang around and get to play a half an hour here and there, maybe even do something ridiculous like be active, develop friendships, maybe even improve!!!! Let's not forget the fact that kids who are talented at one sport tend to be talented at them all - so does that mean that the same few lads or girls should dominate the teams at every sport? There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin.

As someone said in the shop Friday morning, "They don't feel pressure at that age. When they get a bag of chips after the game, they have it all forgotten."

The players do. I can assure you that the guy who never got to play and spent the whole game feeling miserable on account of it doesn't. In fact in many cases, they don't forget that feeling for a long time. I'm guessing that the "someone in the shop" wasn't that guy. Actually, no, let me rephrase - I'm stone cold certain that they weren't.



As for backofthenets points (incidentally it's great to have the other side of the debate on here!)

There was nothing wrong with the structure, being involved in juvenile soccer i have been rang by one parent in particular about why her son wasnt getting more game time...and this is at U-15 level!!! I tried explaining to her as gently as possible that I have 23 players for 11 spots, and id played him every 4-5 games and couldnt really do much more if I was to try and keep the games competitive!

Nobody is arguing that we don't want competitive matches. We're just saying that slightly different settings are appropriate for national school kids. I agree that at under 15 you have to be a little bit more biased towards your better players since you're now a lot closer to adult level.

The simple fact is, kids know who is good at what. Ask any normal 12 year old and they will tell you who the best player at soccer, hurling or rugby is....so why are we trying to tell them there all the best player???!!!

The message here is not that everyone is equal. It's that everyone will get a chance to improve. That we'd like to win this game, but that we'd like to do it as a team with everyone chipping in. Ideally we'd like to do it with everyone playing as much as possible, maybe in two or three different teams. Nobody's talking about drawing the team out of a hat.

Mark my words some of the coaches and underage players will be unhappy with this situation and some of the better players will turn to Rugby / Soccer for that competitive game. If I go playing a practise match for one of our senior sides, most of the time we throw on 6-7 subs to give lads a game, If Im honest, i dont enjoy those games half as much as a competitive one, be that league or championship, and I think a lot of kids will feel the same.

You speak as if younger players aren't playing these games already - of course they are. Also, you'll notice that underage kids aren't scrumming down, they're playing tag rugby. It is completely possible to be competitive, just not in the form that adults are familiar. As for the practice match bit, well the key is in the name - practice. It's designed for everyone to get better, which I would assume would be beneficial when championship rolls around and you need one of those six or seven lads to come on as sub and chip in?

[Lone Shark]

Just on a point of note, I was reporting on the Under 12 "B" football championship final yesterday, and while there was some great football played and it was great to see two teams go at it in such a wholehearted fashion, the Kilcormac/Killoughey mentors made the case for Go Games better than anyone ever could. Despite leading by 0-14 to 1-3 with at least minutes left, they used no subs and left twelve players idle on the sideline. Two young lads were actually asked to warm up and went for a run along the far sideline (in Banagher) only to be left there by themselves and not brought on, even though the game was long over as a contest and Shannonbridge had already used all their five substitutions to give as many kids as possible a run.

Of course they wanted to win, but this was ridiculous carry on I thought. Unlike Shannonbridge too, who were dipping well into the barrel of under 10 players to make up the numbers and had plenty of girls on the squad too, this Kilcormac/Killoughey group had no girls and didn't seem to have any players who were way undersized and unable to compete at this level. No excuse.

[paulwatts]

here here lone shark....brilliant piece...i have nothing but complete and utter agreement and respect for your views...the less talented players at underage should be encouraged and helped develop just as much if not more than the talanted one...
great piece

[Georgio1]

I agree with everything Lone Shark says on this topic. As an U8 to U12 coach, your job is to bring through as many kids who have learned the basic skills and enjoy trying to play Gaelic football. You can already have earmarked those who you feel will be successful at U14 etc, but the strange thing is many of the talented guys will drop out for one reason or another.
You will also have a guy who struggled or did not necessarily shine as the main talent who will improve and become a leader, (I actually think Jimmy Grennan may have fallen into this category). Kids playing in the front lawn see all these games as competitive, (and as the Shark says, many's a game we played in school with only a tennis ball!)

Its failed footballers on the line who generally are mad for these championship style games to improve their own CVs and as ego trips.
We had a group of young players this year who played a few challenge games at u8 and it was great for them. Everyone was accomadated and parents were happy to see their kids getting game time. And guess what guys, they will all be back next year, and some of the weaker crew may be the main men then.

The real issue though is the amount of time outside official training sessions that kids kick around a ball, and have a hurl in hand! Parents could do worse than get out in the evening and encouraging kids out to play!

[Heshs Umpire]

More oul populist shite there from Sweeney.

He can get it right the odd time but most of that article is crap.

Sweeney, of course, tries to come across as some sort of GAA lover when a glance at his book on Sligo Rovers and a bile filled chapter relating to the GAA would show where his real loyalties lie.

[Silken Thomas]

More oul populist shite there from Sweeney.

He can get it right the odd time but most of that article is crap.

Sweeney, of course, tries to come across as some sort of GAA lover when a glance at his book on Sligo Rovers and a bile filled chapter relating to the GAA would show where his real loyalties lie.

Sweeney is the prime example of the degeneration of Ireland's premier Sunday paper.
Unbelievably the chief clown in a very competitive ensemble.
Deliberately controversial but consistently painful.

I would love to say he finally wore me down with his pro Richie Connor pandering at the time of the footballers strike in '08 but he had never wrote anything worthwhile in the first place!

[turk]

Folks I am still not sure on this one and I have thought for a long time about it.
Lads on the sidelines roaring at young lads and girls disgusts me. This should not be tolerated and refs should just stop matches if it goes on.
The Go games are great - I am all for them. But I don't know if the U12 championships have to be jettisoned at the same time.
I don't know though, I think we will have to wait a couple of years and see.

[paulwatts]

just on a side note to the discussion...which believe is a topic which needs serious adressing for the prevention of youngsters walking away from our games.
i think the work being done at ferbane belmont underage is just brilliant...it wont be long till they are back on top of offaly football...and thats only good for offaly. and i hope other clubs around offaly follow suit and get it right at grassroot level

[Georgio1]

Whilst I would agree that there is great work going on in Ferbane, the fact is that Shannonbridge have had a fair few players on these teams, which will dilute the pipeline into adult teams.
I also must say that its a farce of a situation to see Ferbane relegated from Junior A and have a team good enough to get to the Junior B final? Seems a little unfair, and pure manipulation of the system to wangle a championship!