Gaelic Football's biggest flaw

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EIREhotspur
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Gaelic Football's biggest flaw

Post by EIREhotspur » Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:01 pm

While all of the arguments go on in GAA today about various aspects, Rule on "Foreign Sports", Croke Park etc I'd like to ask what other people think of the most obvious...ignored flaw in GAA Football.

The Tackle...or should I say Non Existent Tackle.

The whole defending players “flip flapping” their arms at the guy is possession is the most pathetic sight in GAA Sports and always has been.
The defenders are not sure exactly what it is they are doing to get possession back as to punch it out of the opposing players hands is deemed a foul in the rule book. When I played football not too many decades ago lol....it was that one simple rule that brought the Gaelic Game down as a sport for me.

The GAA has always criticized Soccer for this and that. Liam Mulvihill I remember on the Late Late Show years ago, criticizing Soccer for Corporate Boxes, Shirt Sponsors and Commercialism.

Have a look around Croke Park and watch out for the new GAA Playstation 2 game next Summer and wonder where those highly original ideas came from?

The subject at hand though is this non existent tackle.
If Soccer has looked at the offside rule then where is the committee to look at bringing in a tackle for Gaelic Football.

The Compromise Rule minus the Mark is a great game to watch.
Gaelic Football players adapt to the tackle in that game but resort to the embarrassing flailing of the arms on the return to their own game.

Hurling is a better game to watch for many reasons but one is the rules on tackling.
The Ball is there to be won while on the stick whereas in Gaelic Football it was always a case of Make it up as you go along.
Players don’t know what’s a foul and what’s not…nor do referees….and spectators…well “shur we will just ignore it cause it has been that way for over a century and that’s how it is…..why change it….tis the way of the GAA.
Hmmmmmm Wheres me flat cap and shillalagh

Course it is….think about that next Summer when your kids want to get the new GAA PS” game on their way home from Croke Park with its Corporate Boxes.

Amateur Sports is great isn’t it?

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Lone Shark
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The tackle

Post by Lone Shark » Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:21 pm

Can't imagine too many people will disagree with you on this.

I'd imagine that as the theory went originally, you were supposed to challenge for the ball when it was being played, i.e. hopped, kicked or toe-tapped. The fair shoulder was the only other option when the ball was being held. However over time the idea of calling a guy for overcarrying when he takes 5 or 6 steps as opposed to 10+ has morphed into "spoiling the game" or "destroying the flow".

Equally defences have adapted by using two man tackles, also against the rules, but completely ignored by officials. Despite its' prevalence, I've never seen a two man tackle blown up in my time.

The truth is that to regularly whistle for either of these infringements would lead to constant frees being given, which wouldn't please anyone. Equally while the Aussie rules tackle is fine between highly trained athletes, if it was Ferbane vs Shannonbridge junior B it would be a licence to throttle fellas. It couldn't work at the lower levels of the game.

All I can suggest is to enforce overcarrying more strictly, put up with the regular whistles for a year or so, and thus encourage lads to pass the ball a lot more rather than run with it. Even I'm not certain about this though.

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Post by Great White Shark » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:37 am

Totally disagree - in my opinion the day the GAA introduce an aussie-rules style tackle to football is the day they'll murder it. It'll change the game completely.
A tackle like that will remove the chance for a player to go on a blazing solo run, one of the best sights in fooball, I love it when a Padraig Joyce or Gooch turns his man and heads for goal with a defender flailing after him. If an aussie-rules type tackle was allowed the defender would just jump on his back and haul him to the ground - we wouldnt have goals like gooches in the final the year or malones in the leinster final in '97 if this was allowed.

EIREhotspur
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Gaelic Football Fundemental Flaw

Post by EIREhotspur » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:07 pm

Well then if this No Tackle situation continues, all you have is a glorified version of that Eurosport Handball game where there exists no tackle either.

The fact that the GAA has never sought to a single thing in relation to a tackle over the years shows that they are clueless on how to deal with it.

An Ostrich like unwillingless to even acknowledge a problem is really pathetic too.

Take for example the change they had to the interpetation of the offside rule last season in England? Remember where a player walking back towards his own goal was not deemed offside but could turn around and then carry on thus being onside? That led to chaos and referees, players, managers and fans didn't know what was offside and what was not.
What did the English Football powers that be do?
They changed it back to the way it was and it worked again.

Next time you talk to a GAA person, ask them why there is no Tackle in GAA football.
They won't be able to debate as they don't know the answer.

For a game to continue for as many years as it has with such a fundemental flaw turned me off watching it. the Aussie/Ireland game at least is a fair game with a tackle in it.

Not saying an Aussie Rule Tackle is the be all and end all of answers....but do you see the GAA even looking at this anytime soon?

Listen Padraig Joyce & Malone's goals etc are great and all very well etc...but taking into perspective what the defenders are to do to stop them running past them legally and they don't amount to a Diego Maradona v England goal.

A defender running towards an attacker is like a Dog chasing after a car....what are they going to do when they catch them?

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Post by Great White Shark » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:20 pm

if there is no tackling allowed then can you explain to me exactly how the good defenders around like Moynihan, Daly, Slattery manage to consistently rob attackers of the ball ?

I dont get your following point:

Listen Padraig Joyce & Malone's goals etc are great and all very well etc...but taking into perspective what the defenders are to do to stop them running past them legally and they don't amount to a Diego Maradona v England goal.

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Bord na Mona man
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Re: Gaelic Football Fundemental Flaw

Post by Bord na Mona man » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:26 pm

EIREhotspur wrote:A defender running towards an attacker is like a Dog chasing after a car....what are they going to do when they catch them?
Shoulder charge as they are legally entitled to do if they get alongside them, or try and dispossess them when the attacker tries to either hop or solo the ball.
EIREhotspur wrote:An Ostrich like unwillingless to even acknowledge a problem is really pathetic too.
The same charge could be levelled at FIFA at why they have never addressed the notion that after 90 minutes of play, a game often ends without a single score being registered?
It's all in the eye of the beholder.

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Shoulder Charge does not constitute a Tackle

Post by EIREhotspur » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:52 pm

if there is no tackling allowed then can you explain to me exactly how the good defenders around like Moynihan, Daly, Slattery manage to consistently rob attackers of the ball ?

Easily explained.
Moynihan, Daly, Slattery manage to consistently rob attackers of the ball because they either intercept it while in flight or they break the rules when a referee with no clue as to what is a foul etc won't blow his whistle for fear of "not letting the game flow"
Jostling a guy in the back from behind is deemed a foul, punching a ball from a players hand is deemed a foul..wheres the tackle? What is a tackle?
And before you say a blockdown is one...what goods that with a guy tip tapping in fronot of you and running past you?

I dont get your following point:

Listen Padraig Joyce & Malone's goals etc are great and all very well etc...but taking into perspective what the defenders are to do to stop them running past them legally and they don't amount to a Diego Maradona v England goal.

Answer....Maradona running past 7 men from his own half with the ball at his feet with the chance of a fair tackle coming in to disposess him at any point beats someone running through with a ball in his hands in a game with no legitimate way of taking it from his hands.

Shoulder charge as they are legally entitled to do if they get alongside them, or try and dispossess them when they try and either hop or solo the ball.
Shoulder Charge them?
Have you ever tried to run around a guy who is solo-ing the ball to meet up shoulder to shoulder?
Come off it....the only time you can get a good shoulder on someone is when the ball is on the ground and both are running for that ball. Or maybe in a two on one situation with the second defender catching the attacker unawares.
If you had to try and shoulder a guy with the ball as the means to take it off him then twists and turns to get away are easy.

The same charge could be levelled at FIFA at why they have never addressed the notion that after 90 minutes of play, a game often ends without a single score being registered?
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Wrong
FIFA (who are still a bunch of suits) have tried out silver goal extra time/golden goal extra time/penalty shoot outs/an experiment of taking a player from each team after every 5 mins of extra time/a 5 player from each team shoot-out with each player starting from the halfway line trying to beat the goalkeeper/bigger goalposts/an offside line being tried out between the halfway line & the goaline...and the list goes on.
And the best discription why a game ends 0-0 after 90 minutes? Because it is harder to score.
You can't stand with the ball in your hands and balloon it towards two sticks to score.

Fact of the matter is...forget shoulder charging etc...there is no TACKLE in Gaelic Football.
Whats Pat Spillane's email....he will fix this.

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Post by Great White Shark » Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:01 pm

listen mate if you consider soccer to have a tackle then i'm wasting my tackle talking to ya, its practically a non-contact sport.

stick to the Spurs, or would you be a "Celtic-man" ?

EIREhotspur
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Facts

Post by EIREhotspur » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:01 pm

Consider?...I don't consider...Soccer does have a tackle - fact.
Spurs through and through.
Celtic play in a Mickey Mouse League

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Lone Shark
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The Tackle

Post by Lone Shark » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:27 pm

We won't start the soccer vs Gaelic football thing. I wouldn't imagine we have enough webspace to house it. Suffice it to say that they both have very different tackles defined.

On a bit more thinking about this, I think one change in the rule could improve matters.

The truth of it lately is that a shoulder to shoulder charge is legal - unless you do it well enough to knock the guy over, in which case a lot of refs wuss out and give a free. Now if instead of discouraging this, but rewarding a fair shoulder charge by forcing any player on his knees or on the ground to release the ball, but also enforcing the two man tackle rule, then we could have something we could work with.

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Post by the bare biffo » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:12 pm

First post here. Hope the site goes well for you lads/lassies.

As for the tackle;
I suppose a lot of the problem is that the rules were framed at a time when the emphasis was much more on moving the ball. Players werent as fit, and tended to deliver the ball long rather than run with it in hand.

To say there is no tackle shows an ignorance of the game. I suspect (correct me if wrong) what you mean is there is no tackle on the man.
This is not true either because the shoulder charge is in the rules, although as I mention above the changes in the style of football played limits the usefulness of the shoulder.
Outside of pure athleticism, I would think the primary skill in defending is anticipation. Get to the ball first, see danger befor it develops and cut it out. Our trainer used to talk about positional sense, this is just anticipation. So first and foremost prevent your opponent from gaining clean possession. Failing that, yes the defender is at a disadvantage, especially if the ref fails to apply the overcarrying rule. The objective then is to shepherd the opponent away from danger as much as possible and attempt to intercept any attempt by him to play the ball away.

You may as well criticise basketball for having no tackle, rugby for only being allowed pass the ball behind you, or soccer for not being allowed handle the ball. All these things are critical to the nature of the respective games.

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Post by EIREhotspur » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:07 am

As for the tackle;
I suppose a lot of the problem is that the rules were framed at a time when the emphasis was much more on moving the ball. Players werent as fit, and tended to deliver the ball long rather than run with it in hand.
Your right...back then it was football...now its handball.

The tackle which you refer to...a shoulder on the man with the ball....like I said before...thats all right if you are running alongside him...but what good is that if he twists and turns. The shoulder cannot be defined as a tackle.
The palming the ball from the hands is the official tackle as defined by another post.
Hurling is a great fair game. Ball has to go to the stick...so a man can be tackled fairly.
Gaelic Football has referees who don't want to apply the rules of the game. Don't you find it more than coincidence that one of the Rules insisted on was The Australian Tackling being adopted for the compromise?
For a game to have widespread appeal...their must be a fair way of competing. I don't expect the GAA to look at a rule change anytime soon.
The anticipation thing is all and good...but where does most of the interceptions happen? In the last third where most of the defense is and space is tight.
Basketball has a tackle...Rugby has a pass backwards rule to enable space forward for people to play in much like the offside rule and in soccer...there is no handball because they had left that to Basketball & football.

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