2018 NHL

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.

Re: 2018 NHL

Postby LooseCannon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:32 pm

Bord na Mona man wrote:
LooseCannon wrote:
private joker wrote:Saw james Dempsey against Waterford this year. Offalys best player, excellant short puckouts. Brillant shot stopper. People need to remember a goalkeeper needs options for puckouts to work.


With C Egan back, we have a great option for puckouts.

Ah here, knock that initialisation shite off! :mrgreen:



To be fair, he’s probably more of an aerial threat than what was there last year.
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Re: 2018 NHL

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:33 pm

OK, firstly, volunteering is volunteering. It comes from the volunteer themselves. It is not for another to ‘volunteer’ the other. At this point in time, I am not in a position to serve on an executive. I work out of the county and am away during the week. Truth to tell, I am not involved with my native club and while that is not ideal, there isn’t much I can do about it. I salute the work the volunteers at county and club level and I try to be fair in my commentaries here.

Still, I do what I can. As many here know, I am a keen programme collector and I contribute statistics and articles for the match programmes produced by Offaly board. I spent Hurricane Ophelia day gathering historical statistics for the Rhode v Portlaoise and the Kilcormac v Castletown Geoghegan programmes. I hate Offaly being crap at stuff and while I won’t be coaching teams, I do what I can to add a little quality to Offaly’s match programmes. I would point out that this, and other small volunteer work can be contributed without membership of a committee.

Now, looking at the timing of the minor hurling semi-finals and Final. April and May is taken up with inter-county minor championships, while June is for the State exams, though I note Minor fotball’s round 1 was held on 26th May. After July 1st, the schedule was as follows: -
5th July – Minor hurling, round 1
12th July – Minor football, round 2
19th July – Minor football, round 3
26th July – Minor hurling, round 2
2nd August – Minor football, round 4
9th August – Minor hurling, round 3
16th August – Minor hurling, round 4
23rd August – Minor hurling – round 5

That left six teams left in each code. Ferbane-Belmont and Ballinamere-Durrow wer still in both. And then the pinch point hit. There was a three way play-off required in Junior hurling (which involved Belmont), evenings became darker and there were no midweek matches from something like mid September (for hurling, anyway).

The knockout stages were held as follows –

17th September – Minor hurling quarter-finals
29th September – Minor football quarter-finals
4th October – Minor football semi-finals
15th October – Minor football Final
30th October – Minor hurling semi-finals

Now, given the involvement of St Rynagh’s (Senior hurling), Ballinamere (Intermediate and Junior hurling), Belmont (Senior and Junior hurling), Ferbane (Senior and junior football), Durrow (Senior ‘B’ football) and I’m sure there were several others, it is unfortunate that the minor hurling was the one to get deferred. But the options were – to delay a championship or competition where the winners would compete in Leinster on the one hand; make certain players play two or more matches a week on another hand; or seek the goodwill of a club or clubs not to expect a Minor player to also line out with their club’s adult team on a particular weekend, on the third hand. I cannot see an alternative? Can anyone else?

Buttons pointed out that a few fellas had to kick football with Durrow in Leinster on a Saturday and to hurl in the Minor final on the next day. But what was the alternative? To defer the Minor hurling? Now, okay, that would have been played today – but what if Durrow beat Rochfortbridge, and subsequently won in Wexford? What then for the Minor hurling Final? And what of the Minor hurling final if Ballinamere had beaten Fr Daltons, and/or if St Rynagh’s (who had a crossover of Senior/Minor hurlers) had won the Senior final?

As for U21 hurling, perhaps the thing to do is to do what they do in Kilkenny (and what they used to do in Offaly for much of the 1990s, and that is to schedule it in November. I don't hear complaints regarding the autumn setting from Kilkenny - it is a fact of life there.
LooseCannon wrote:My sincerest apologies, I forgot to proofread my statement. Your application of logic to problem solving is majestic. Something which organisers and administrators to do with GAA in the county have been lacking for the past years.
It was a comment made not to be sarcastic, but to be serious. From reading posts of yours for the last number of years, you have always been logical, as well as realistic in your approach towards problems or areas to improve upon in relation to Offaly GAA. I was being serious when I asked the question, while hoping maybe if not you, then a like-minded individual could help freshen things up at CB level, by helping to rid our county’s administrative committees of the same lads who are on it this 15 years. I wasn’t implying you of being a hurler on the ditch at all, and I earnestly apologise if I conveyed such a portrait at all, it most certainly wasn’t my intention if I did so.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: 2018 NHL

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:39 pm

Just to add to this – the sixteen weeks from the beginning of July to mid October wound be fierce bare if all we had was five weekends of club hurling and five weekends of football.

And another thing – one of the handicaps facing Offaly hurling for the last few years is that a Senior championship exit on the first Saturday in July gives little exposure to summer hurling against the leading hurling counties. Next year, Offaly will hurl their last match on Sunday 3rd June. Anyone remember the cold of the evening this year in Mullingar – that was on May 27th (just a week earlier).
Plain of the Herbs wrote:There has been a considerable knee jerk reaction to this week’s decision to have a single group of eight teams in each of the Senior, Senior ‘B’ and Intermediate championships in each grade next year. Personally, I'm not in favour of the eight team groups, but can it be done? Let’s look at the schedule to see if it can.

The NHL’s final round is on the first Sunday in March (week 9). The NFL finals will be on the first Sunday in April (week 13). Offaly footballers and hurlers commence their Leinster campaigns on Sat/Sun 12th/13th May (week 19). There is certainly scope for three rounds between the two codes, and a fourth if Offaly didn’t reach the div 3 NFL final.

Offaly hurlers complete their Leinster campaign on Sunday 3rd June (week 22). The football qualifiers are scheduled as follows – round 1 on 9th June (week 23), round 2 on 23rd June (week 25) and round 3 on 30th June (week 26). It is most unlikely Offaly will get beyond this point – they haven’t done so since 2010. Then the way is clear for club action. If Sunday 14th October (week 41) was targeted for the Senior football final and the hurling final a week later (week 42), there are 16 weekends from week 27 through to week 42.

The finals can be played in time for the Leinster championships and there will be no need for midweek ‘doubling up’ as they do in Westmeath. I don’t know of it was decided to have quarter-finals or not – best if they didn’t, for the sake of scheduling.

There will be two provisos. It is difficult to see how the U21 championships could be played at any time except in November. But then, that is when they play their U21 championship in Kilkenny, and several other counties besides. The other is that club leagues will have to be played in February, March, May and June. That means clubs will have to play the leagues without their county players.

Whatever happens, there will be plenty of matches for the club player in July, August and September in 2018.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: 2018 NHL

Postby Lone Shark » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:12 pm

Plain of the Herbs wrote:Just to add to this – the sixteen weeks from the beginning of July to mid October would be fierce bare if all we had was five weekends of club hurling and five weekends of football.


I should weigh in here because I'm very much on the side of the argument that this new system is daft. I take the point that you make, and I understand that to the majority of the people in the county, that's very much the case - that in Offaly, if there are only ten rounds of club championship football/hurling, then there are only ten rounds of club action in total. In order to create something sustainable, I do believe that this will have to change.

In a world where multi-eligibility is a fact of life, you simply cannot have a system that can balance the twin goals of (1) making sure that every team has all their players available for every match, and (2) ensuring that the player who is only playing for one team still has a meaningful season, with a decent programme of games.

There is no shortcut around that - and the answer to that is a league, where there is some level of competitiveness to it, and where the ordinary club players is getting decent games, even if his county colleagues aren't available. Moreover, if you have just ten weekends of senior championship, there's nothing to say that you can't have senior B or Intermediate on different weekends, or God forbid, that we actually play our under-20/under-21 games at this point as well.

However there is no getting away from the fact that for a dual player, a championship campaign that could involve anything up to 20 matches, with as many as 16 of them coming one week after another with no break, is just not sustainable - and while once upon a time I'd have been of the view that maybe Offaly does need to stop accommodating dual players, the fact is that huge swathes of our county now see both sports taken moderately seriously. Of the 24 clubs that played Senior A, Senior B and Intermediate football in Offaly in 2017, at least 15 of them have either a few or a lot of club hurlers in their ranks. There may be more, I'm unaware of any in places like Daingean, Walsh Island, Croghan etc., though someone closer to that area might be able to tell me otherwise. And naturally, the story would be similar if we looked at hurling clubs with footballers involved.

And that's before we allow for the other aspects:

(1) That we are putting in place a structure that will only work as long as Offaly hurlers never again reach a hurling quarter final, or a place in the "Super 8".
(2) That it means the championship games themselves are played with about the same intensity as league games in most counties. The gulf in quality between group games in Offaly and group games in (for example) the Galway hurling championship, the Roscommon football championship, the Westmeath football championship, is huge.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: 2018 NHL

Postby LooseCannon » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:19 pm

Lone Shark wrote:
Plain of the Herbs wrote:Just to add to this – the sixteen weeks from the beginning of July to mid October would be fierce bare if all we had was five weekends of club hurling and five weekends of football.


And that's before we allow for the other aspects:

(1) That we are putting in place a structure that will only work as long as Offaly hurlers never again reach a hurling quarter final, or a place in the "Super 8".
(2) That it means the championship games themselves are played with about the same intensity as league games in most counties. The gulf in quality between group games in Offaly and group games in (for example) the Galway hurling championship, the Roscommon football championship, the Westmeath football championship, is huge.


Would you be able to put up the formats of these championships, please? (In your own time of course) I think it’s an A B thing in Gaillimh agus Iarmhí. Don’t know about Rod Comáin. (I haven’t a clue about how the A B thing works)

Thanks
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Re: 2018 NHL

Postby substandard » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:59 pm

In Roscommon, 12 Senior A teams in two groups of 6, A and B, same in Intermediate. 5 group games, after which
-The top 2 in A go straight to semi-final
-3 and 4 in A play 1 and 2 from B in quarter finals.
-I know in Intermediate top two from B play in Group A the following year, and the Bottom two from A move to B, I presume it's the same in A.
-Bottom Two in B play off in relegation, so it's one up, one down from Senior to Intermediate to Junior.
This year, Brigids' 2nd team won the Junior, but the team they beat played in the Connacht junior.
I think it's a decent structure, and while there can and does be a couple of dead rubber games, by and large there is something at stake in the vast majority of games. I think it rewards progressive teams with good underage structures, and you can't get away with perennially coasting along as a non-moving entity.
In the same way as Rhode is the big dog in Offaly, Brigids are the preeminent side, and it looks as if the conveyor belt is going to speed up the supposed rebuild necessary after Corofin hockeyed them last year.
In theory, Group A in Offaly could be Rhode, Clara, Edenderry, Ferbane, Tullamore and Gracefield. No easy game there, and 2 defeats could put a team in bother. Say Rhode and Clara make the semi-final. Take your pick of two from the others to face the Top 2 from Group 2 in Quarter Finals. Next year, two from Edenderry/ Tullamore/ Gracefield/ Ferbane are going to be playing in Group B. They have to be in the top 2 to make the quarter final, so every game is a must-win. Similarly, whichever two teams that beat them have to fight tooth and nail to stay in Group A.
It's not without its flaws, and it will throw up group fixtures with a team guaranteed a semi-final spot against a team already going down, but nowhere near as many empty games as one/ two big groups.

Sidenote: The hurling championship is run off with 7 teams, two groups, and while these are stand-alone teams in their own right, every hurling club is a dual club, but with varying degrees of cross-over.
Last year, Oran won the senior hurling after a replay, and I think a replayed semi-final. They had a huge crossover of players that played in replayed intermediate football semi-final and replayed final, so they had a very hectic end of year.
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Re: 2018 NHL

Postby LooseCannon » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:06 am

substandard wrote:In Roscommon, 12 Senior A teams in two groups of 6, A and B, same in Intermediate. 5 group games, after which
-The top 2 in A go straight to semi-final
-3 and 4 in A play 1 and 2 from B in quarter finals.
-I know in Intermediate top two from B play in Group A the following year, and the Bottom two from A move to B, I presume it's the same in A.
-Bottom Two in B play off in relegation, so it's one up, one down from Senior to Intermediate to Junior.
This year, Brigids' 2nd team won the Junior, but the team they beat played in the Connacht junior.
I think it's a decent structure, and while there can and does be a couple of dead rubber games, by and large there is something at stake in the vast majority of games. I think it rewards progressive teams with good underage structures, and you can't get away with perennially coasting along as a non-moving entity.
In the same way as Rhode is the big dog in Offaly, Brigids are the preeminent side, and it looks as if the conveyor belt is going to speed up the supposed rebuild necessary after Corofin hockeyed them last year.
In theory, Group A in Offaly could be Rhode, Clara, Edenderry, Ferbane, Tullamore and Gracefield. No easy game there, and 2 defeats could put a team in bother. Say Rhode and Clara make the semi-final. Take your pick of two from the others to face the Top 2 from Group 2 in Quarter Finals. Next year, two from Edenderry/ Tullamore/ Gracefield/ Ferbane are going to be playing in Group B. They have to be in the top 2 to make the quarter final, so every game is a must-win. Similarly, whichever two teams that beat them have to fight tooth and nail to stay in Group A.
It's not without its flaws, and it will throw up group fixtures with a team guaranteed a semi-final spot against a team already going down, but nowhere near as many empty games as one/ two big groups.

Sidenote: The hurling championship is run off with 7 teams, two groups, and while these are stand-alone teams in their own right, every hurling club is a dual club, but with varying degrees of cross-over.
Last year, Oran won the senior hurling after a replay, and I think a replayed semi-final. They had a huge crossover of players that played in replayed intermediate football semi-final and replayed final, so they had a very hectic end of year.


Thanks for that.
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